I'm not suggesting we ignore Apocalypse World; I'm saying that if we're going to treat it as more representative than MYZ, you need to make the argument why it is, and not just beg the question.
I've made the argument already. Now you're just not bothering to read, is pretty sad stuff.
To repeat, the argument is that it's been hugely influential on TTRPGs, with PtbA-based and then FitD-based RPGs being gigantic for last most-of-a-decade. You don't get to talk about "small-press fantasy heartbreakers" in the '90s (which actually, I'm well aware of - they all sold like three copies) and pretend you don't know about this.
MYZ got a cheesy and not-very-good turn-based shooter based on it, that was financially unsuccessful, and hasn't had much influence, certainly outside of the Scandi scene.
You obviously never saw the large number of fantasy heartbreakers out there. You can, indeed, argue they were not exactly knocking the doors down, but there were a lot of them, and they weren't less successful than in gestalt than a number of non-class and level systems out at the same time. I have boxes full of the latter out in the garage.
Absolutely they were "less successful in gestalt".
I have no idea why you think otherwise. None. Pretty much all of them flopped very rapidly. They didn't go on to edition after edition like other stuff. I remember I used to go to all the Oxford Street-adjacent RPG shops in the early '90s, which was quite a number, not just Orcs Nest. Virgin Megastore was actually particularly good if you wanted to see totally rando small-press heartbreaker stuff. For some reason they had even broader stock than full-on RPG stores like Orcs Nest. Every month it seemed like they had a couple of copies of some new fantasy heartbreaker. And they'd be there for the rest of eternity, until Virgin Megastore got shut down.
I remember when I went to the US a ton in the 2004-2006, I visited the various FLGSes in that area. They had some really incredible ancient stuff in like bargain racks at the back - some of the very same fantasy heartbreakers from the '90s.
I think I understand the problem now, though, you're not actually interested in actual success or influence. You're not interested in what games actually shaped things. You're just counting. Not money even, or sales numbers. Just like "X games of Y type". Even if they were all small-press failures, you're treating them as mattering. The same with post-apocalyptic RPGs. As a genre, they're extremely minor. Those games aren't typically very successful, or influential (with Apocalypse World the main exception, which was influential rather than making huge money). But you seem to think we have to consider them - we don't. If you regularly saw what actually sold at FLGSes and so on it was extremely obvious. There was a reason some games occupied many shelves and had dozens of supplements, and apart from AD&D and RIFTS (and briefly Earthdawn) they typically weren't class/level-based.
A half-dozen fantasy heartbreakers everyone has now forgotten (and I definitely remember them existing, but most are 100% forgotten now) wouldn't match the sales or influence of some individual World of Darkness splatbooks - I don't even mean corebooks - I mean splatbooks. I'd be willing to bet say, Clanbook: Tremere alone outsold an awful lot of fantasy heartbreakers.
The same "real success doesn't matter" attitude is seemingly reflected in a later claim:
I'd argue the success of MMOs have just taken a while to completely splay across other genres. If you don't think so, well, you don't.
Are you trying to say is the MMOs helped influence other video games into including "RPG mechanics"? If so I mostly-agree (it's a bit more complex but there's some truth there).
But the situation we have now might trace back to MMOs popularizing class & level, but it's certainly not solely caused by them nor is it what is the major influence today. They're a relatively niche kind of game, despite once being very successful. Someone who is 20 today may well never have played a full-on MMORPG. But they've probably played a bunch of games, maybe even most of their games from their teens and onwards, with classes and levels.
If you ignore the direct 5e knockoffs I don't have much sign class-and-level systems are any more common than they ever were, and if you count knockoffs, there were an enormous amound of D&D3e era ones in that period.
I agree completely. I never suggested that was the case.
The gamers aren't looking for alternative class-and-level games. Why would they? D&D 5E is right here. That's part of why D&D 5E is so successful, and why people are sticking with D&D so well.
