D&D (2024) I'm a longtime player and there really is only one thing that will stop me from switching to 5.X

[Thomas Shey]

Indeed. The people who prefer PF2e over 5e really prefer PF2e. They sing its praises loudly and often. For them, it's the far superior game system.

Now, the number of people who feel that way is rather smaller than the ones who enjoy a simple and robust system like 5e. You only have to look at the relative popularity of 5e and PF2e to see that. But as is usually the case when there's a small but significant segment that feels ill-served by the market leader, when an alternative arrives that's aimed more at their tastes they become fiercely loyal to it. And that loyalty translates into sales.

Do I begrudge the PF2e enjoyers their system? Not at all. I'm glad they have something that makes them happy. Do I wish they maybe had a bit more perspective, and recognized that PF2e is a niche taste and not just an objectively superior product to 5e? Yeah, I kind of do. Their proselytizing can be a bit tiresome. But that's hardly a new thing in the geek sphere. We're always fighting over which game system is better, or if you should be watching Star Trek or Babylon 5, or anime subs vs anime dubs, or something.

I think referring to it as a "niche taste" only makes sense if everything but D&D is considered niche. Which, I suppose you can argue for, but it seems kind of a hot take in and of itself.

 

[Kurotowa]

I think referring to it as a "niche taste" only makes sense if everything but D&D is considered niche. Which, I suppose you can argue for, but it seems kind of a hot take in and of itself.

If I had to defend my off the cuff wording, I would say that it's one thing if a game system is substantially different than D&D. If you're playing Call of Cthulhu or Shadowrun or in the World of Darkness, you're not playing D&D. But from the very start, Pathfinder has been "What if D&D, but a different flavor." You have to compare it directly to D&D because in so many respects, it is D&D. And it's clear that "D&D with a much more technical game system" is an inherently smaller audience. Which is the definition of a niche taste.

I don't consider something being a niche taste to be a negative value judgment. Lots of my favorite things have a niche appeal. But I try to recognize what those things are, and only recommend them to people who show signs of sharing that taste.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Everything in this hobby is a niche. The only reason to call out other fantasy games is because they're competition in the tribalism sense.

 

[Thomas Shey]

If I had to defend my off the cuff wording, I would say that it's one thing if a game system is substantially different than D&D. If you're playing Call of Cthulhu or Shadowrun or in the World of Darkness, you're not playing D&D. But from the very start, Pathfinder has been "What if D&D, but a different flavor." You have to compare it directly to D&D because in so many respects, it is D&D. And it's clear that "D&D with a much more technical game system" is an inherently smaller audience. Which is the definition of a niche taste.

I don't consider something being a niche taste to be a negative value judgment. Lots of my favorite things have a niche appeal. But I try to recognize what those things are, and only recommend them to people who show signs of sharing that taste.

The fact its in the D&D sphere doesn't change my point. There are tons of games in the D&D sphere, some of them pretty successful by the standards of the hobby as a whole: PF2e, Shadow of the Demon Lord, 13th Age and that isn't even getting into some of the more successful OSR games. I think for "niche" to be a useful term in RPGing you need to pluck out D&D proper before you even start, and by that standard its hard to see PF2e as "niche".

Are there PF2e fans who are filled with missionary zeal? Sure. But I don't have any sign that's worse with them than any of a large number of other successful RPGs.

 

[Kurotowa]

Are there PF2e fans who are filled with missionary zeal? Sure. But I don't have any sign that's worse with them than any of a large number of other successful RPGs.

Depends which forum you're on. The D&DNext reddit is full of people who will leap on questions about how to do something in 5e with, "Well actually PF2e does that better." RPGnet is more likely to have people try and sell you on Shadow of the Demon Lord or Worlds Without Number or 13th Age. Here on ENworld, rather than other systems you get more general complaints that things were better back in [Insert Prior Edition] and that they're just going to homebrew everything than give WotC another penny.

I don't object to suggesting alternative systems at the appropriate juncture. It's, as you say, the missionary zeal that wears. Especially when the missionary doesn't account for the difference between a specialized system and a deliberately big tent system.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Depends which forum you're on. The D&DNext reddit is full of people who will leap on questions about how to do something in 5e with, "Well actually PF2e does that better." RPGnet is more likely to have people try and sell you on Shadow of the Demon Lord or Worlds Without Number or 13th Age. Here on ENworld, rather than other systems you get more general complaints that things were better back in [Insert Prior Edition] and that they're just going to homebrew everything than give WotC another penny.

I don't object to suggesting alternative systems at the appropriate juncture. It's, as you say, the missionary zeal that wears. Especially when the missionary doesn't account for the difference between a specialized system and a deliberately big tent system.

Sure. I'm just saying that, having been around a lot of other RPG communities, you see this everywhere. I'm not going to name names (because it could easily come across as calling out those games and communities) but you'll see it a fair bit, and to be honest, its also often aimed at D&D. Heck, when I was younger I was kind of bad about it myself.

I'd suspect (and I acknowledge I could be wrong because its not like I know you) that since you're steeped in the D&D sphere you just notice it more here.

 

[payn]

Depends which forum you're on. The D&DNext reddit is full of people who will leap on questions about how to do something in 5e with, "Well actually PF2e does that better." RPGnet is more likely to have people try and sell you on Shadow of the Demon Lord or Worlds Without Number or 13th Age. Here on ENworld, rather than other systems you get more general complaints that things were better back in [Insert Prior Edition] and that they're just going to homebrew everything than give WotC another penny.

I don't object to suggesting alternative systems at the appropriate juncture. It's, as you say, the missionary zeal that wears. Especially when the missionary doesn't account for the difference between a specialized system and a deliberately big tent system.

I remember being a Pathfinder adopter early. The site was inundated by lots of, "lol, should have gone 4E. PF should do it this way. Why you suck compared to D&D?" which gets very tiresome. Folks eventually developed a strong suffer no fools gladly approach to them. I even recalled a few antagonistic folks who would be awful over there, but come here to EN World and post very reasonably. You cant judge a community by a single site. You sure as hell shouldnt do it by Reddit.

 

[Professor Murder]

The degree of thread drift here is rather spectacular, tbh.

 

[GobHag]

The degree of thread drift here is rather spectacular, tbh.

Unironically great for me. 5e winding down is such a good time to me

 

[Professor Murder]

Unironically great for me. 5e winding down is such a good time to me

Meh. I am not interested in people going into excruciating detail about why the don't like a game. Tell me what works in your favs.