D&D (2024) I'm a longtime player and there really is only one thing that will stop me from switching to 5.X

[CapnZapp]

One way in which you are incorrect: If I stop buying books, I get to keep the ones I have. If we see a move to a pure subscription service, when I stop paying, I loose access.

That's the point.

Instead of owning anything, you pay forever and if you stop paying, you end up with nothing. Thus, more money for the same or less product. That's the future we all wanted, right?

This.

I did not say anything you can label as "incorrect", by the way.

 

[payn]

I certainly hope it was intentional because if it wasn't, that's worse.

Still, doesn't explain why you would wilfully take the most successful game ever and go "nah... let's implement the opposite solution in every single instance, that must be the recipe of success!"
You could make an alternative to 5E that remains much more mainstream D&D, is what I'm saying. There was zero need to go to the frankly extreme lengths Paizo went when they designed PF2.

If you are trying to get out from under that paradigm it makes a lot of sense. Making a 5E copy would just cement the idea that Paizo merely lives on WotC scraps.

This doesn't even start with the 4E comparisons, because it's too depressing. But much like 4E, PF2 is its entirely unique thing, and shares exceedingly little with PF1. Much like a 4E adventure, a PF2 adventure is instantly recognizable as such, and much like 4E, you can't easily port scenarios to or from PF2.

The choice came with some cons for sure. I do think they have a tight and well designed system (too tight and overdesigned for my taste) that gives them a unique position in the market to go forward. For better or worse Paizo has its own brand now.

 

[Vaalingrade]

As a justification for making the design decisions Paizo went with, "at least it's not 5E" is exceedingly weak.

But they were highly effective with me.

 

[Thomas Shey]

As a justification for making the design decisions Paizo went with, "at least it's not 5E" is exceedingly weak.

That's misreading my statement. Its "What is 5e not serving?" That's an absolutely reasonable question to be asking, and I'd say the available evidence supports that it worked. Its wishful thinking to perceive it hasn't been successful for them on the part of people who didn't want what they supplied.

 

[Thomas Shey]

If you are trying to get out from under that paradigm it makes a lot of sense. Making a 5E copy would just cement the idea that Paizo merely lives on WotC scraps.

And frankly, probably fail. Like I said, you don't find market by trying to move into the same niche already filled by the big dog. All that would have done is have people saying "So why don't we just play D&D?"

The choice came with some cons for sure. I do think they have a tight and well designed system (too tight and overdesigned for my taste) that gives them a unique position in the market to go forward. For better or worse Paizo has its own brand now.

Yup. I mean, there are going to still be people who neither D&D nor Pathfinder is serving, but that was going to happen no matter what.

 

[payn]

And frankly, probably fail. Like I said, you don't find market by trying to move into the same niche already filled by the big dog. All that would have done is have people saying "So why don't we just play D&D?"



Yup. I mean, there are going to still be people who neither D&D nor Pathfinder is serving, but that was going to happen no matter what.

Right, and I think its working for them despite the thoughts it isnt. PF2 is more successful than PF1, if Paizo folks are to be believed. PF2 being an alternative to 5E isnt only true, but its also known.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Right, and I think its working for them despite the thoughts it isnt. PF2 is more successful than PF1, if Paizo folks are to be believed. PF2 being an alternative to 5E isnt only true, but its also known.

Like I said, there's a certain subset of people who PF2e didn't give what they wanted that really, really want to think of it as a failure, but there's just about zero evidence that's true.

 

[Kurotowa]

That's misreading my statement. Its "What is 5e not serving?" That's an absolutely reasonable question to be asking, and I'd say the available evidence supports that it worked. Its wishful thinking to perceive it hasn't been successful for them on the part of people who didn't want what they supplied.

Indeed. The people who prefer PF2e over 5e really prefer PF2e. They sing its praises loudly and often. For them, it's the far superior game system.

Now, the number of people who feel that way is rather smaller than the ones who enjoy a simple and robust system like 5e. You only have to look at the relative popularity of 5e and PF2e to see that. But as is usually the case when there's a small but significant segment that feels ill-served by the market leader, when an alternative arrives that's aimed more at their tastes they become fiercely loyal to it. And that loyalty translates into sales.

Do I begrudge the PF2e enjoyers their system? Not at all. I'm glad they have something that makes them happy. Do I wish they maybe had a bit more perspective, and recognized that PF2e is a niche taste and not just an objectively superior product to 5e? Yeah, I kind of do. Their proselytizing can be a bit tiresome. But that's hardly a new thing in the geek sphere. We're always fighting over which game system is better, or if you should be watching Star Trek or Babylon 5, or anime subs vs anime dubs, or something.

 

[payn]

Indeed. The people who prefer PF2e over 5e really prefer PF2e. They sing its praises loudly and often. For them, it's the far superior game system.

Now, the number of people who feel that way is rather smaller than the ones who enjoy a simple and robust system like 5e. You only have to look at the relative popularity of 5e and PF2e to see that. But as is usually the case when there's a small but significant segment that feels ill-served by the market leader, when an alternative arrives that's aimed more at their tastes they become fiercely loyal to it. And that loyalty translates into sales.

Do I begrudge the PF2e enjoyers their system? Not at all. I'm glad they have something that makes them happy. Do I wish they maybe had a bit more perspective, and recognized that PF2e is a niche taste and not just an objectively superior product to 5e? Yeah, I kind of do. Their proselytizing can be a bit tiresome. But that's hardly a new thing in the geek sphere. We're always fighting over which game system is better, or if you should be watching Star Trek or Babylon 5, or anime subs vs anime dubs, or something.

Kicking wildly at 5E is pretty much what everyone does. Whether its PF2 or Free League or whatever. When you are the big dog, everybody comes at you.

 

[Incenjucar]

There are ways in which the My Little Pony RPG is a better game than 5E or Pathfinder 2E, for a given audience or goal. There are facts you can say about the systems, but it all comes down to what you want to do and how you want to do it.