Immortals Handbook - ASCENSION

[Upper_Krust]

Hi dante mate!

When giving deities extra abilities, to compensate them for their complete lack of interest in Artifacts, do they lose those extra abilities if they use an artifact, or do they simply gain an increased challenge rating and level adjustment.

Well, firstly I wouldn't suggest giving them compensating abilities as standard. Only as an optional rule.

Another question...Cosmic Firmament as detailed under sidereals is totally different from Cosmic Firmament as detailed under Cosmic abilities. Which ruling is correct?

Both. I may have to change the name of one and create two abilities though.

The same applies for other abilities, like Transcorporeal, while still others just simply dont exist anymore. Where did Fecundity and Unreal go?

Things were bound to change as I worked more and more on the abilities.

Don't worry, when I go back over the sidereals and eternals I'll be sure to fix everything.

Thanks for the heads up though.

Just a few proof reads. Hope this helps a bit. As it stands Im waiting for the final version before making a time lord.

Though I might just play a demiurge for giggles. Imagine, a guy who wanders around and is not only one with the universe...but is the universe and more.

I have my initial builds for the time lords and I am starting to wonder if reality (along with the mechanics) does indeed break down at a certain point.

Due to VSCs the current build of Dabbat could kill a duplicate of himself with one critical hit.

There is a massive auto-spike in damage dealing thanks to VSCs. While you can offset this with other abilities they sort of seem like cheating.

Sidenotes:In instances where creatures (such as the amidah) have wish at will. I find it preferable to give them Alter Reality since Wish essentially makes them beg for divine intervention. Wishes are granted by deities in our campaigns. I just cant see Amidah dropping to one knee and begging for help. I very much like the version of Alter Reality that lets you mimic any spell, rather than the version that requires you to Wish for things. We still have the house rule that gods grant their own wishes, mortals cannot. Thus Wish is a liability for any Amidah or Akalich. Though we can see some Akalich using wish to bargain with the gods for favors, so we kept it for that purpose. We do think, however that some Akalich may have Gate rather than wish, for the purpose of Gating in more powerful minions and the like.

Well, use whichever you think suits it best.

I also give creatures the prerequisites for their abilities. Like...for example...Evil Eye...I give them Inner Eye as well, rather than implying that they don't have both abilities. I find it adds to game balance and fluidity. And it keeps the other players from bickering over the precise details of whether or not prerequisites are also acquired.

In most circumstances, these house rules do very little to change the overall flavor of the templates or their power, and makes it easier to make such creatures.

Another note, Luck for the Amidah...we made it Fortuity x60, which is exactly the same thing. We figured it was a logical update. Ill send you our houserules updated Amidah and Akalich templates...just to see what you think.

That makes sense.

Anyhoo...Great Work...Keep it up, we know ur wracking ur brains trying to finish everything on time.

I am actually enjoying creating the artifacts for the sample deities.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

...
I have my initial builds for the time lords and I am starting to wonder if reality (along with the mechanics) does indeed break down at a certain point.

Due to VSCs the current build of Dabbat could kill a duplicate of himself with one critical hit.

There is a massive auto-spike in damage dealing thanks to VSCs. While you can offset this with other abilities they sort of seem like cheating.
...

Yea, I noticed that after throwing together "basic" High-lords. With +800 Strength they gain about 53 VSCs! With bonuses from the strength Portfolio and whatnot, you could be looking at more D10s for melee damage than exist!

Perhaps the bonuses from the Divine Portfolios are applied "last" like enhancement bonues, and wouldn't count for or against a deity's VSCs. (And those deities wouldn't have ludicrous natural armor ratings. The "vorpal bunny" Highlord, while having extremely optimized powers, was a duad with +15899 natural armor!)

This will mean certain gods (Surtur) will be really low damage dealers unless they wield appropriately scaled material weapons. Just think of what a Monk deity could do! Flurry of Annihilation! (Though not as good as the Demilich Monk: Flurry of Skulls!)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Yea, I noticed that after throwing together "basic" High-lords. With +800 Strength they gain about 53 VSCs! With bonuses from the strength Portfolio and whatnot, you could be looking at more D10s for melee damage than exist!

I know, the relationship between hit points and damage seems uncompromising.

Perhaps the solution is to give 'construct style' bonus hit points per VSC instead of a Con bonus. At least that way hit points keep pace with damage. Can I hear a "Eureka!"

Lets see...

Str 535, Macro-Tiny. Base Str 90 = 28 VSCs

So its the equivalent of Tera-Fine size = +5,242,880 bonus hp.

Alternately it would be a +163,840 hp bonus if we discount all the non-VSC size categories.

A simpler possibility may be to include a transcendental ability (like a cosmic firmament upgrade) that multiplies a beings hit points tenfold (to represent the fact that as universes such individuals are 10-dimensional beings). This could be granted as standard to eternals.

I think I prefer the latter (tenfold) idea, much simpler.

Perhaps the bonuses from the Divine Portfolios are applied "last" like enhancement bonues, and wouldn't count for or against a deity's VSCs. (And those deities wouldn't have ludicrous natural armor ratings. The "vorpal bunny" Highlord, while having extremely optimized powers, was a duad with +15899 natural armor!)

Surtur appears pretty balanced, even my current build of Abraxas doesn't look unbalanced, although I suspect he is a single 'Legendary Strength' cosmic ability away from utter ridiculousness.

This will mean certain gods (Surtur) will be really low damage dealers unless they wield appropriately scaled material weapons. Just think of what a Monk deity could do! Flurry of Annihilation! (Though not as good as the Demilich Monk: Flurry of Skulls!)

Or (in the style of the Mystery Men), using Eclectic Shot you could have a Flurry of Forks and Spoons.

 

[dante58701]

Flurry of spoons !!! LOL !!!

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

...
Or (in the style of the Mystery Men), using Eclectic Shot you could have a Flurry of Forks and Spoons.

'Twas a good movie. Bowling-ball demilich for the win.

Another Idea for the HP dillemma: A cosmic ability that doubles HP. BAM. Legendary Toughness? Maybe it could stack, increasing the final multiplier by 1 each time. (X2 base, then X3, then X4...)

A transient ability (Or cosmic) ability could be like total [Stat] but for HP, where you gain temporary HP = to your foe's maximum.
(I say transient because the Total [Ability] powers are really, really, strong. Sure, they are useless if your opponent used that stat as a dump stat, but if not, you win. A power like "Transcendant Toughness" would be really strong no matter what the foe was.

 

[dante58701]

That might not be a bad idea

 

[Pssthpok]

*sniff sniff...*

Yes.


I smell it in the wind.


It's the endless duct-taping of new house rules to cover up holes in other house rules.

When this happens... run. It's a sign of the times, i.e. the end of the fluidity and ease of example, when a new idea that seemed good before reveals its flaws to be greater than the flaws before it.

The cure is often worse than the disease.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

*sniff sniff...*

Yes.


I smell it in the wind.


It's the endless duct-taping of new house rules to cover up holes in other house rules.

When this happens... run. It's a sign of the times, i.e. the end of the fluidity and ease of example, when a new idea that seemed good before reveals its flaws to be greater than the flaws before it.

The cure is often worse than the disease.

These things will inevitably come up. D20 breaks down really quick once you get to anything that resembles physics. (And sometimes common sense.)

Since Ascension isn't finished, the VSC rules can be slightly altered, or a fix can be put in somewhere. (Like the suggested cosmic/transient powers)

I think the main problem is that damage, and natural armor, scale way too fast. (And with actuall size catagories, the size penalties scale rather dramatically too)

Perhaps a modification of the VSC rules could fix things. Like instead of exponentially increasing damage, make it so that each VSC adds like +1d10 damage or whatever. It would make it a hella lot easier to figure out. The natural armor could be fixed by changing VSC AC inflation to something like +1 AC per VSC.

Alternatly, they could remain as-is, and and divine beings would need some sort of HP boost to survive. I do like the VSC rules because they favor fighters and help them stay a viable option in epic play, since their damage can start increasing.

Granted, most of these problems come at End-game level play. I don't think most DMs are going to run games for Demiurges too often. The game isn't too bad at the Cosmic level of play though. (Legendary [Ability] and Total [Ability] can mess stuff up, but they can be fixed, rather than be the problem)

I agree that these holes should be addressed, but whatever is decided apon must: A: Not bring with it it's own rules baggage. and B: Be decided as Final and decided quick, because it would change a large part of the system. The bestiary can be erratta'ed, but it should be the only one, because like Pssthpok noted, an endless sting of rules changes does not a solid system make.

 

[foreverelf]

the end of the fluidity and ease of example, when a new idea that seemed good before reveals its flaws to be greater than the flaws before it.

That sounded very I-Ching-like

 

[Cheiromancer]

I'm thinking that with Ascension already in PDF form, it is rather inflexible and hard to change. I rather suspect that it was releasd prematurely; it was not "almost perfect" with a few minor details to straighten out. There are in fact major areas that need attention. I think the number of updates bears this out.

Trying to make major edits on a PDF is way too difficult and time-consuming to be worth doing. I think the best decision would be for UK to revert back to a word document (or several documents) until things are actually finished. And only then make a PDF. Otherwise the process is even longer and more painful than it already is.