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Immortals Handbook - ASCENSION

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paradox42

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In my own version of the Great Wheel I long ago postulated the existence of "previously hidden" layers of planes like the Heavens, Paradises, and so on, so as to balance out the Wheel perfectly. That is, whenever one plane has less layers than its opposite, in the official cosmology, my version gives the "smaller" plane more layers to make up the difference. Thus, I have 666 layers of Heaven, though the actual mountain that is all most mortals know of the plane ends at the 7th layer (which most of them never even reach, in fact). This also means there are 9 layers of Olympus, 4 layers of the Beastlands, 6 Paradises instead of 2, and so on... the one evil plane to get this treatment is Hades, which has a 4th layer that's sentient and typically eats travellers unfortunate enough to stumble into it.

But then, I wasn't planning on using the "Sidereal at the heart of every layer" explanation in my game either- there can and will be planes without Sidereals at their heart in my game- so for me the issue of balancing Sidereal alignments is moot in any case. :)

As for the Demiurge "tier" issue, I think they are in fact Eternals, but in a similar manner to how Hero-Deities are gods. They're a transitional step, in other words, not entirely the next higher tier but rapidly (on an Immortal timescale anyway) becoming it. And by this token, I think it's worth asking whether we really want to be giving Hero-Deities a Cosmic ability for every artifact they don't have- won't this end up causing balance issues too, since normally they'd have less than 6 Divine Ranks?

I did strongly prefer the notion that there is only one Demiurge in a particular universe/cosmos, particularly since I am myself familiar with some of the mystical/occult lore that U_K based the notion on in the first place, but Ltheb's story idea is too cool to pass up so my opinion has changed. :) Thinking of it in terms of what a Demiurge really represents, compared to other Eternals, perhaps it breaks down like a universe with multiple-personality disorder. I have, in my homebrew, a Goddess of Insanity who is herself insane, and who had alternate personalities of hers "cleave off" into deities in and of themselves. Why couldn't a Universe do the same thing, even if we assume the existence of an actual Demiurge represents the universal consciousness "waking up" from an eons-long slumber?
 

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Phantom Llama

First Post
I would solve the Abyss problem by saying each abyssal old one actually incorporates 111 or 66 layers.

I don't like solution #2 since deities shouldn't be dependent on items. There are too many good concepts (see: Algol) without any and they don't deserve to be gimped. Artefacts are supposed to be linked to the deity's power, so it's not necessarily a concept of knives and gunfights.

I suggest Demiurges getting two Transcendental abilities per artefact instead of one Omnific (and possibly Hero Deities getting two Divine abilities per artefact instead of one Cosmic in view of Paradox42's comments). You don't get to tap the power of Infinity until you properly encompass all things. Also note that this is not a recommended option for PCs.

Fortunately Abraxas has 4 artifacts* so I don't have to worry that much about it in the short term.

* ;)
This intrigues me. What sort of loony mythology has The Universe owning artefacts? I'm guessing from the ;) that you aren't telling us until you reveal his statblock in whichever update though.


That said, some things I worked out with Buugipopuu today:

Egotism (Mortal) (Ex)
You love the sound of your own voice.
Prerequisites: Cha 25
Benefit: You can use all bardic music effects on yourself.


Greater Potency (Cosmic) (Ex)
Magic fills your being.
Prerequisites: Key casting stat 70, Potency
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class you possess. For that class, all your HD contribute to its caster level.


Immutable (Omnific) (Ex)
You are unchanging.
Prerequisites: Indissoluble, Infinite Constitution or Omnific Toughness.
Benefit: You are not subject to damage.


Infallible (Divine) (Ex)
You don’t fail.
Prerequisites: Cha 40
Benefit: Natural ones are not considered automatic failures.


Nonlinearity (Cosmic) (Ex)
You cannot be solved analytically.
Prerequisites: Cha 70, Chaotic alignment
Benefit: Enemies do not gain Insight bonuses against you.


Omnipotence (Omnific) (Ex)
Your power is without limit.
Prerequisites: Key spellcasting ability 250, Greater Potency, Potency, Superior Potency
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class you possess. Your caster level in that class is raised to infinity.
Special: Omnipotence cancels with Omnipotence for the purposes of opposed checks and with Immunity to Magic for the purposes of penetrating spell resistance.


Potency (Divine) (Ex)
Magic is within your being.
Prerequisites: Key casting stat 40
Benefit: Choose one spellcasting class you possess. For that class, class levels or HD that do not increase caster level instead have half caster level progression. Class levels or HD that have half caster level progression gain full caster level progression.


Rhythm (Divine) (Ex)
Your every act is musical.
Prerequisites: Perform 40 ranks, Cha 40
Benefit: You can use up to one Bardic Music effect at any one time without requiring actions or concentration.
Special: This would allow you to use a second Bardic Music effect at the same time as the first. You don’t have to play two instruments at once to do this, but it would be awesome if you did.


Solipsism (Omnific) (Su)
Your mind defines reality.
Prerequisites: Wis 250, Sophism
Benefit: Each time you interact with an opponent (maximum once per round) you may make a Will saving throw against their level to disbelieve their existence. If you are successful they are considered illusory with respect to you from that point forwards.
Special: If you fail your Will save to disbelieve an illusion, it is real.


Superior Potency (Transcendental) (Ex)
Magic overflows from your being.
Prerequisites: Key casting stat 130, Greater Potency, Potency
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class you possess. For that class, all your HD contribute twice to its caster level.


Transpatial (Transcendental) (Ex)
You are where you wish to be.
Prerequisites: Dex 145, Superluminal
Benefit: You can move as a free action.
Special: You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for movement.



EDIT: Also, Transpersonal is currently just Omnipersonal but better, and Sophism should be named Sophistry.

EDIT 2: Fixing first edit. This'll teach me to post at one in the morning.
 
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Solipsism (Cosmic) (Su)
Your mind defines reality.
Prerequisites: Wis 250, Sophism
<snip>

I notice that all other cosmic abilities with an ability prereq have it at 70. 250 is the number for omnific abilities. Which is it?
 

WarDragon

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
The options would seem to be:

1. Give them all 4 artifacts.
2. Don't worry about 'missing' artifacts slightly unbalancing things.
3. Give them monsters in place of artifacts.
4. Give them powers in place of artifacts.
5. Give them powers (but weaker than they would have with artifacts) in place of artifacts.
I say stick with number 4, which you've already got listed as the default, and worked out how it's going to apply to Algol. 1 and 2 definitely don't work, 5 is a flat-out nerf thanks to Cozen and Abrogate, and 3 is just weird.


Phantom Llama, unless I'm reading it wrong, all of U_K's deities already get your Greater Potency for free. Most notably, Morgan le Fey, Horus, and Dagda have CL in all their casting classes equal to total HD + divine bonus.
 

Phantom Llama

First Post
Servitor of Wrath said:
I notice that all other cosmic abilities with an ability prereq have it at 70. 250 is the number for omnific abilities. Which is it?
Good catch. Fixed, it's an Omnific ability. That might not be good enough though, since it doesn't seem to really compare to Learned Opponent Immunity.


Phantom Llama, unless I'm reading it wrong, all of U_K's deities already get your Greater Potency for free. Most notably, Morgan le Fey, Horus, and Dagda have CL in all their casting classes equal to total HD + divine bonus.
I hadn't noticed that.

AFAIK that largely removes the multiclassing woes you mentioned above, since the chief reason multiclassing spoils characters is because it ruins their ability to penetrate SR. Although with HD running far ahead of the D20 roll that's already the case for full casters in IHland.
 
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paradox42 said:
...

I did strongly prefer the notion that there is only one Demiurge in a particular universe/cosmos, particularly since I am myself familiar with some of the mystical/occult lore that U_K based the notion on in the first place, but Ltheb's story idea is too cool to pass up so my opinion has changed. :) Thinking of it in terms of what a Demiurge really represents, compared to other Eternals, perhaps it breaks down like a universe with multiple-personality disorder. I have, in my homebrew, a Goddess of Insanity who is herself insane, and who had alternate personalities of hers "cleave off" into deities in and of themselves. Why couldn't a Universe do the same thing, even if we assume the existence of an actual Demiurge represents the universal consciousness "waking up" from an eons-long slumber?

Heh, thanks.

My notion of multiple demiurges is based off of the Quintessence tables: Theres a listing for how much you need, so if Bob gets X worship points, hes now a Demiurge. (Albiet a certainly different demiurge than standard, but with a bit of change to the template, simple to implement)

The other thing I considered is that a Timelord sundered will reconstitute it self, and the "Main" fragment being the demiurge may not be the part that forms the final whole; What if a very tiny portion, like a mortal, was indeed the "true timelord"? IE this mortal could ascend each and every divine tier (Probably Highlander-style) until it reached Demiurge level, and slay the being that comprised the bulk of the Timelord's power. I think this way is the best way to "write off" PCs who break some of the boundries of the standard IH cosmology, like a PC who Ascends to Sidereal state; He or she isn't instantly imprisoned or bound into a plane (Unless there happens to be rivals who can make it happen) but perhaps his or her power-standard might be a bit different, like modified Divinity template abilities or something.

Phantom Llama - Nice powers. Transpacial and Nonlinearity are pretty cool.
 

WarDragon

First Post
Phantom Llama said:
I hadn't noticed that.

AFAIK that largely removes the multiclassing woes you mentioned above, since the chief reason multiclassing spoils characters is because it ruins their ability to penetrate SR. Although with HD running far ahead of the D20 roll that's already the case for full casters in IHland.
I was thinking more about how sticking with one class would get them more bonus Epic feats, and the fact that some classes abilities just don't compliment each other. Vainamoinen and Horus would both be better off switching their caster classes for Sorcerer (woo, Charisma synergy!), and Dagda completely negates two of his classes any time he uses the main feature of the third (i.e., you can't cast while raging).


Here's something completely out of left field, that hit me while thinking of builds. If immortals can have any amount of non-Epic wealth they want, and books that give +5 inherent bonuses are non-Epic... why would any deity take the Perfect Body and Perfect Mind abilities?
 
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WarDragon said:
...
Here's something completely out of left field, that hit me while thinking of builds. If immortals can have any amount of non-Epic wealth they want, and books that give +5 inherent bonuses are non-Epic... why would any deity take the Perfect Body and Perfect Mind abilities?
U_K said at one point they were really for disciples and prophets, since they don't qualify for many of the divine abilities. Statistically, they are stronger than a divine ability, but their bonuses can be easily obtained from other places. (Tomes, wishes, etc)
Granted, for Immortals with more more than 4 wishes a day, they are useless.
 

WarDragon

First Post
Makes sense, Ltheb.

Krusty, this next one's for a couple of builds I'm working on (or planning, rather). Which of the following would be appropriate as Divine Handicaps?

-Cannot grant spells.
-Cannot create avatar and aspects.
-Does not possess a godly realm.
-Loss of template spell-like abilities.
-Loss of portfolio spell-like abilities.
-Vulnerability to an energy or weapon type (50% more damage).
 

Hey guys! :)

Firstly no Surtur tonight, the reason being I was out all day doing my Christmas shopping (made sure to get it all done in the one day), got back late and I am totally knackered.

But the preview is a mere hour's work away from completion, so I'll have it done by lunchtime tomorrow.

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
Number 2 rings as the easiest, (and balance should not over-ride common sense; Bring a knife to a gun fight, get shot) Number 5 I think would be pretty fair.

I'm just going to go with #4 and implement dante's suggestion.

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
As for giving an Esoteric Power: Sounds great, but again with Demiurges getting omnific powers, that can get pretty rediculous fast.

It does raise the question if Demiurges should be Eternals.

Disciple, Prophet
6 Immortals
6 Sidereals
Time Lord, High Lord

Might be workable.

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
This does raise a cosmological question: How many "Official" Demiurges (Non-ascended deities) can their be in a universe? If the answer is 1, then what happens if all the sidereals gang up on him and slay him? (Omega/Astro effect, etc. Other perma-death moves..?)

They would still have to 'trump' him to permanently kill him.

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
Giving a Demiurge 1-4 omnific powers make them very strong indeed, strong enough to repel all the Sidereals at least. (And with their portfolio elements maxed out, they should have no problem doing so)

It definately makes them too strong. I think a transcendental power is enough.

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
With more than 1 Demiurge per universe, (Perhaps explained by some ancient prophecy that some mortal would ascend to overthrow the old ones etc.) this isn't such a big thing.

The demiurge is the creator of that particular universe, in fact the universe is his 'body' as it were.

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
Killed Abraxas eh? Well you should have known that in secret the arch wizard Ltheb took that moment to cast a 300th level spell, stealing much power from the Akashic Library, and now none shall stop him, Mwahahaha!... Lol.

:D

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
As for the whole abyss thing; Yea, 666 evil entities are pretty nasty. But whose to say thats all there is? Perhaps some other demi-planes, divorced from the astral, contain entities that oppose them... I will say Chaotic Evil is the "easiest" evil because anything you do fits fine.

Also the forces of Good get the Angels as their dimensional guardians.
 

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