Immortals Handbook - ASCENSION

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dude!

I just noticed something minor, but strange.... why do your Druid gods have Summon Nature's Ally spells prepared, when Druids can cast them spontaneously?

Okay, thanks for the heads up, its simply an honest mistake.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Phantom Llama matey!

Convert into the minimum number of abilities IMO (the 'minimum' thing is best as only a guideline though). However this is only if you can't think of any fitting new artefacts.

I may just do that tonight and get the darn Surtur entry on the website - for better or worse. We can argue about it after the fact.

I favour fighter on aesthetic grounds.

I'm sort of inclined to go with Sorcerer even though it has very little net benefit to someone with Alter Reality.

On the same hand I think you have to represent the Warrior element of the Fire Giant race.

I am almost tempted to give Surtur Fire & Earth portfolios and give his Avatar Fire & War portfolios.

Earth (actually Mountain as IH:A is written). It fits the Elder One of Magma theme better, and is less overdone. Every evil deity and his brother has Destruction.

Well I can see WarDragons point that he is the Pantheon Destroyer, ergo he is a 'Destroyer' deity.

But I do like Muspell doubling for the para-elemental plane of Magma/Lava.

It also sets up his opposite number (Ymir) nicely as the regent of the para-elemental plane of Ice.

This duality could be why the norse gods have two pantheon destroyers (relatively weak for Elder Ones).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi dante mate!

perhaps upon reflection your post should have been here after all.

I think trading in for divine abilities is fine. It makes for more flexibility,

The fundamental problem though with this idea is that it brings back the diversity I hoped to do away with in the first place by limiting immortals to 4 artifacts.

though I think it should be limited to selecting divine abilities you can normally select and one tier higher. Thus an immortal could select cosmic abilities, while a sidereal could select transcendental.

This way it keeps people from abusing the optional rule.

That sounds like a very good idea.

Undergod - 1 Divine ability in place of an artifact.
Immortal (Demigod or above) - 1 Cosmic power in place of an artifact.
Sidereal - 1 Transcendental power in place of an artifact.
Eternal - 1 Omnific power in place of an artifact.

Now, the balance issue that arises are:

Elder Ones DvR 24, and Old Ones Dvr 32 are getting a Transcendental power worth 36 divine ranks.

However, its probably not that big of a discrepancy. It might up their challenge rating but its unlikely to make that much of a dent in the Encounter Level.

A slightly bigger problem is Demiurges and Omnific powers. I do see that causing some concerns.

Fortunately Abraxas has 4 artifacts* so I don't have to worry that much about it in the short term.

*

But I don't like the idea of giving a Stage 1 Demiurge a 200 rank power when he should have a 64 rank artifact. That is going to make an EL difference.

Great idea dante mate - I'll definately use that for the everything up to Demiurge (so we just need to work out Demiurges now).

 

[Axolotl]

How many layers are there in your abyss? Reading through the Epic Bestiary I think that it has 666. However this would mean that over half of all the sidereals are all trapped in one plane. This is a huge unbalance of power in the favour of CE over all the other alignments. Why are so many Elder Ones CE?

 

[paradox42]

But I don't like the idea of giving a Stage 1 Demiurge a 200 rank power when he should have a 64 rank artifact. That is going to make an EL difference.

Great idea dante mate - I'll definately use that for the everything up to Demiurge (so we just need to work out Demiurges now).

Just treat Demiurges as Sidereals for this. Really, they haven't finished eating all the Sidereals and becoming Time Lords again yet, so why should they get the same powers that beings not bound by a single universe get? The Demiurge is still bound in the dimensions "below" Muzaloth, right?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Axolotl!

How many layers are there in your abyss? Reading through the Epic Bestiary I think that it has 666.

Thats correct, 666.

However this would mean that over half of all the sidereals are all trapped in one plane. This is a huge unbalance of power in the favour of CE over all the other alignments. Why are so many Elder Ones CE?

I think this is the same parallel you face with demonkind. The reason it cannot overcome its neighbours through sheer weight of numbers because ultimately chaotic evil types cannot work together, its in their very nature to be disobedient.

As for the reason why there are so many, if I may turn to Star Wars for inspiration, the dark path is quicker, easier, more seductive. Of all the evils, chaotic evil is the basest kind. Thus many are drawn to it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Just treat Demiurges as Sidereals for this. Really, they haven't finished eating all the Sidereals and becoming Time Lords again yet, so why should they get the same powers that beings not bound by a single universe get? The Demiurge is still bound in the dimensions "below" Muzaloth, right?

Correct. Thats probably the best way of dealing with it.

In fact it makes you wonder if Demiurges should be Eternals at all...?

 

[Axolotl]

I think this is the same parallel you face with demonkind. The reason it cannot overcome its neighbours through sheer weight of numbers because ultimately chaotic evil types cannot work together, its in their very nature to be disobedient.

I understand that but it still means that there is a huge unbalance in the alignments with over 3/4 of all sidereals being part of the abyss.

In fact it makes you wonder if Demiurges should be Eternals at all...?

I would put them as sidereals, however they would work best as their own stage, this however ruins everything else.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Axolotl!

I understand that but it still means that there is a huge unbalance in the alignments with over 3/4 of all sidereals being part of the abyss. I would put them as sidereals, however they would work best as their own stage, this however ruins everything else.

Personally I like the idea that the cosmos is a frightening place (its sort of Lovecraftian in its uncaring nature).

The proclivity of chaos and evil makes the need for heroes that much greater!

Of course things may be different in other campaigns. So theres nothing that says you must have 666 layers of the Abyss.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Hey Ltheb mate!
...
Thats an idea.

The options would seem to be:

1. Give them all 4 artifacts.
2. Don't worry about 'missing' artifacts slightly unbalancing things.
3. Give them monsters in place of artifacts.
4. Give them powers in place of artifacts.
5. Give them powers (but weaker than they would have with artifacts) in place of artifacts.

Number 2 rings as the easiest, (and balance should not over-ride common sense; Bring a knife to a gun fight, get shot) Number 5 I think would be pretty fair.

As for giving an Esoteric Power: Sounds great, but again with Demiurges getting omnific powers, that can get pretty rediculous fast.

This does raise a cosmological question: How many "Official" Demiurges (Non-ascended deities) can their be in a universe? If the answer is 1, then what happens if all the sidereals gang up on him and slay him? (Omega/Astro effect, etc. Other perma-death moves..?) Giving a Demiurge 1-4 omnific powers make them very strong indeed, strong enough to repel all the Sidereals at least. (And with their portfolio elements maxed out, they should have no problem doing so)
With more than 1 Demiurge per universe, (Perhaps explained by some ancient prophecy that some mortal would ascend to overthrow the old ones etc.) this isn't such a big thing.
Killed Abraxas eh? Well you should have known that in secret the arch wizard Ltheb took that moment to cast a 300th level spell, stealing much power from the Akashic Library, and now none shall stop him, Mwahahaha!... Lol.

As for the whole abyss thing; Yea, 666 evil entities are pretty nasty. But whose to say thats all there is? Perhaps some other demi-planes, divorced from the astral, contain entities that oppose them... I will say Chaotic Evil is the "easiest" evil because anything you do fits fine.