Upper_Krust
Legend
Hi CRGreathouse mate! 
I think he is right in what he says. There is a clear distinction between the majority of literary heroes and super-heroes - in terms of power. Also, literary heroes typically evolve, whereas super-heroes are generally begin their careers with their powers which usually don't grow any further over time.
I suppose its a Class Level vs. Template thing. Which neatly parallels how I would interpret the difference between mortals (even epic mortals) and immortals.
Instead of the divinity templates within the Immortals Handbook: Ascension you could easily tweak them to give you some sort of meta-human templates.
Disciple = Tertiary Metahuman ~ Wolverine
Prophet = Secondary Metahuman ~ Spiderman
Hero-deity = Primary Metahuman ~ Ghost Rider(?)
Quasi-deity = Tertiary Superhuman ~ The Thing
Demi-deity = Secondary Superhuman ~ Hulk
Lesser Deity = Primary Superhuman ~ Superman
etc.
Obviously the templates would be a lot more ability score based (instead of granting portfolios, spell-like abilities and so forth). Also more often than not, the changes would be physical ones.
So Spider-man instead of having +2 to each ability score might have +20 strength, dexterity and constitution. His two metahuman abilities might be Web [Effect] and Seventh-Sense.
Whereas Superman might have +120 to strength and constitution. His Superhuman abilities might include Fire Beam, Icy Breath, Damage Reduction of some capacity and Super-speed.
Anyway I digress...
Where I would disagree with Gary is in applying stats to these literary heroes.
From swopping emails with Gary a few years ago I know that the version of Gord the Rogue who was on the verge of defeating Tharizdun was considered only 30th-level or thereabouts.
Now Tharizdun was capable of punking out even Greater Gods. So you have a situation whereby a 30th-level hero is capable of defeating a greater god or better. In a sense this parallels Moorcock's Elric and Corum I suppose.
To me this, from an RPG persective, is a tad exuberrant. Although you can certainly see parallels with the comics. Is Lex Luthor stabbing Superman with kryptonite any different from Gord slashing Tharizdun with Courflamme?
But its when you apply that reasoning to an RPG you have to make sense of everything and begin thinking about game balance.
Should a 30th-level character be able to slay a First One? While it might make for a good story, I don't think it makes for good game balance.
CRGreathouse said:
Gary Gygax said:
I think he is right in what he says. There is a clear distinction between the majority of literary heroes and super-heroes - in terms of power. Also, literary heroes typically evolve, whereas super-heroes are generally begin their careers with their powers which usually don't grow any further over time.
I suppose its a Class Level vs. Template thing. Which neatly parallels how I would interpret the difference between mortals (even epic mortals) and immortals.
Instead of the divinity templates within the Immortals Handbook: Ascension you could easily tweak them to give you some sort of meta-human templates.
Disciple = Tertiary Metahuman ~ Wolverine
Prophet = Secondary Metahuman ~ Spiderman
Hero-deity = Primary Metahuman ~ Ghost Rider(?)
Quasi-deity = Tertiary Superhuman ~ The Thing
Demi-deity = Secondary Superhuman ~ Hulk
Lesser Deity = Primary Superhuman ~ Superman
etc.
Obviously the templates would be a lot more ability score based (instead of granting portfolios, spell-like abilities and so forth). Also more often than not, the changes would be physical ones.
So Spider-man instead of having +2 to each ability score might have +20 strength, dexterity and constitution. His two metahuman abilities might be Web [Effect] and Seventh-Sense.
Whereas Superman might have +120 to strength and constitution. His Superhuman abilities might include Fire Beam, Icy Breath, Damage Reduction of some capacity and Super-speed.
Anyway I digress...
Where I would disagree with Gary is in applying stats to these literary heroes.
From swopping emails with Gary a few years ago I know that the version of Gord the Rogue who was on the verge of defeating Tharizdun was considered only 30th-level or thereabouts.
Now Tharizdun was capable of punking out even Greater Gods. So you have a situation whereby a 30th-level hero is capable of defeating a greater god or better. In a sense this parallels Moorcock's Elric and Corum I suppose.
To me this, from an RPG persective, is a tad exuberrant. Although you can certainly see parallels with the comics. Is Lex Luthor stabbing Superman with kryptonite any different from Gord slashing Tharizdun with Courflamme?
But its when you apply that reasoning to an RPG you have to make sense of everything and begin thinking about game balance.
Should a 30th-level character be able to slay a First One? While it might make for a good story, I don't think it makes for good game balance.
1 distribution is a little lopsided. (I say 1 charisma power because the other two arn't addative, they are subtractive) Example: Monk - With a Lawful Good monk one could add his or her wisdom 3 times to AC! (And twice to everything else) Since deities get their Charisma to AC already, another charisma power is unnecessary. Moving Unknowing to Int and ditching cunning (Or renaming Unknowing to Cunning but keeping it an Int-based Insight bonus) makes it possible to counter balance the monk even if these powers are taken. (Since he or she only gets the Wisdom to AC once, twice if Good/Evil aligned)
