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D&D 5E Is 5E Special

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
It's less a balance shift, and more a genre shift as you hit Tier 3 at 11. Which, you know, I prefer that Tier 2 as a narrative Genre, too.
It's more that as you hit Tier 3, parts of the game shifts into multiple genres.
Do you have access to the polling results? Access to internal reviews, and playtests done by the core testing groups? Have recordings of meetings that they discuss this? Anything at all other than "I don't like their decisions"?

I have no idea what the majority of people did or did not want, what the results of polls were or how they made final decisions. I do know that this is the best selling edition ever. In my opinion that would not have been possible without a solid game that works well enough for most people. Whether you, me, or your uncle Bob agree with the decisions are not particularly relevant.
At no point in my comment did I state my preferences.


What I stated is.

  1. In the public playtest, X,Y and Z was in DND Next
  2. In more that one playtest packet, X,Y and Z was still present
  3. The public playtest ended
  4. 5e was published without X Y and Z
  5. Topics about X Y and Z being missing became popular in D&D media
  6. X, Y and Z returned to 5e in XGTE or TCOE.
It isn't my preferences.. It's what happened.

I literally have a PDF with XYZ, a PHB with ABC, and TCOE with XYZ.
 

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I hope 2024 brings some serious rewrites of the advice.
That's for sure. The DMG is easily the weakest of the three core books in 5E. The PHB is pretty great - I've got no major complaints. The MM, for its time, was solid (but I'm excited to see the update in 2024). The DMG is maybe the weakest DMG in time as a DM/player, for D&D, on multiple levels, because the advice is profoundly lacking (far worse than 4E, particularly didn't seem to have learned from the good advice in DMG2 and so on), and just doesn't really cover a lot of stuff. What rules and items there are in it are largely uninspiring (for my money - particularly Inspiration, ironically), and the optional rules section is really not great, with rules that are straight-up broken (Sanity) or barely do anything.

It seems like if they got some really good advice people on it, like Robin D. Laws, and looked at the 4E DMG and DMG2 they could really sharpen it up massively. Also just profoundly re-work the optional rules section, and make a default Inspiration design that's more involving.
 

Monero

Villager
Anti-inclusive content
D&D got appropriated By the mainstream and since 5e is braindead it appeals to the lowest common denominator.

Worst thing that can happen to your hobby is for it to go mainstream. That’s why we have no racial bonuses now and fake “OrCs aRE rAciSt” astroturfing.

Pathfinder 1e, 2e, and 4th edition are all vastly superior products that just happened to miss the appropriation window.
 

Oofta

Legend
It's more that as you hit Tier 3, parts of the game shifts into multiple genres.

At no point in my comment did I state my preferences.


What I stated is.

  1. In the public playtest, X,Y and Z was in DND Next
  2. In more that one playtest packet, X,Y and Z was still present
  3. The public playtest ended
  4. 5e was published without X Y and Z
  5. Topics about X Y and Z being missing became popular in D&D media
  6. X, Y and Z returned to 5e in XGTE or TCOE.
It isn't my preferences.. It's what happened.

I literally have a PDF with XYZ, a PHB with ABC, and TCOE with XYZ.
What happened is that they made the best decision they could using information that we do not have.

What you said was that
...

This proves that 5e more or less got lucky that D&D streams and D&D YouTube became a thing, GOT became popular, and modern media stopped mocking nerds and geeks hard.

Which I think is bunk. Yes, there were many, many factors that lead to 5Es success. But all the streams? They didn't get a lot of viewers until after 5E was already exceeding expectations. Critical Role for one switched from PF to D&D because it was more streamlined and approachable.

Yes, some optional features in an optional book were added. Adding features at some point after releasing a successful game, companies do add options. After years of double digit growth.

Your "proof" is unsubstantiated conjecture which I can only assume is to justify your personal opinions and preferences.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I hope 2024 brings some serious rewrites of the advice.
Me too.
A BOATLOAD of stuff was changed after the last public playtest end. And most of these changes are the source of 5e's flaws.
Be specific.
5e is less special.
Mercer is special.
🙄 just the fact that you reduce CR’s succes to “Mercer us special” is so laughable as to make it difficult to read the rest of the post with a straight face.
5e got lucky that a whole generation of millennials and zoomers discouraged antinerd antitheatrekid humor to allow TY, Tok Tok, and Twitch to be popular and cultivate a whole alternative media form for D&D.
“Zoomers” had basically no impact on anything in 2014. Those trends started before 5e launched, and were championed by older millennials and genX in the first several years.

Beyond that, even if you have decided to join the “system doesn’t matter” crowd at the most extreme end, the idea that 5e’s runaway success is all down to zeitgeist is just painfully absurd.
At no point in my comment did I state my preferences.


What I stated is.

  1. In the public playtest, X,Y and Z was in DND Next
  2. In more that one playtest packet, X,Y and Z was still present
  3. The public playtest ended
  4. 5e was published without X Y and Z
  5. Topics about X Y and Z being missing became popular in D&D media
  6. X, Y and Z returned to 5e in XGTE or TCOE.
It isn't my preferences.. It's what happened.

I literally have a PDF with XYZ, a PHB with ABC, and TCOE with XYZ.
You’ve yet to support your claims with actual examples, and even if you do, you haven’t supported the spurious notion that a given game element not making it into the initial release but being released years later proves anything remotely related to what you’re claiming it does.
 

D&D got appropriated By the mainstream and since 5e is braindead it appeals to the lowest common denominator.

Worst thing that can happen to your hobby is for it to go mainstream. That’s why we have no racial bonuses now and fake “OrCs aRE rAciSt” astroturfing.

Pathfinder 1e, 2e, and 4th edition are all vastly superior products that just happened to miss the appropriation window.

Careful not to cut yourself on that edginess, bro.
 



Reynard

Legend
Supporter
D&D got appropriated By the mainstream and since 5e is braindead it appeals to the lowest common denominator.

Worst thing that can happen to your hobby is for it to go mainstream. That’s why we have no racial bonuses now and fake “OrCs aRE rAciSt” astroturfing.

Pathfinder 1e, 2e, and 4th edition are all vastly superior products that just happened to miss the appropriation window.
I, too, like to burst into a room and throw a molotov cocktail.

Do go on.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
D&D got appropriated By the mainstream and since 5e is braindead it appeals to the lowest common denominator.

Worst thing that can happen to your hobby is for it to go mainstream. That’s why we have no racial bonuses now and fake “OrCs aRE rAciSt” astroturfing.

Pathfinder 1e, 2e, and 4th edition are all vastly superior products that just happened to miss the appropriation window.
Mod Note:

A new account, calling fans of the current iteration of D&D “braindead”, and throwing accusations of astroturfing at those opposing RW stereotypes in gaming?

Welcome to ENWorld, here’s your first infraction point! BONUS: have a threadban, as well.
 

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