Is Scorching Ray Too Good?

[Ridley's Cohort]

The real reason is a game-balance aspect: a rogue with multiple attacks of any sort would deal out a level of damage comparable with an equivalent fighter that I'm not comfortable allowing. I'd rather my fights weren't over in one round because the rogue killed the main opponent on initiative 26.

The game balance issue is not that the Rogue can do as much damage as the Fighter. That is not a problem. The game balance issue is when you make it trivial for the Rogue to do as much damage with a ranged standard action as the Fighter can do with a melee full iterative attack.

 

[RigaMortus]

The game balance issue is not that the Rogue can do as much damage as the Fighter. That is not a problem. The game balance issue is when you make it trivial for the Rogue to do as much damage with a ranged standard action as the Fighter can do with a melee full iterative attack.

That depends on your definition of trivial... How often can a Rogue pull this off, really. First, it doesn't apply to undead, constructs and the like. It uses up a resource (spell slot). The Rogue would get 1 casting off if the opponent is flat-footed, then after that he has to come up with other ways to sneak attack. It doesn't work with flanking. If the Rogue was Invis, he would onlt get one casting off, because it breaks Invis. If the Rogue uses Greater Invis (or Blink), he can only do it a limited number of rounds. Not to mention this expends more resources (more spell slots) AND consider the level of spells needed as well.

Compared to the fighter who can pump this amount of damage out (probably more), every round, to creatures that a Rogue can't, and w/o having to use up resources to do so. Long after the Rogue/Wizard is out of Scorching Rays, the Fighter can continue his barrage of attacks.

I don't think I would consider it trivial to pull off. Don't get me wrong, in the right circumstance, with the right spells, against the right enemy, it can be devastating.

 

[Brisk-sg]

That depends on your definition of trivial... How often can a Rogue pull this off, really. First, it doesn't apply to undead, constructs and the like. It uses up a resource (spell slot). The Rogue would get 1 casting off if the opponent is flat-footed, then after that he has to come up with other ways to sneak attack. It doesn't work with flanking. If the Rogue was Invis, he would onlt get one casting off, because it breaks Invis. If the Rogue uses Greater Invis (or Blink), he can only do it a limited number of rounds. Not to mention this expends more resources (more spell slots) AND consider the level of spells needed as well.

Compared to the fighter who can pump this amount of damage out (probably more), every round, to creatures that a Rogue can't, and w/o having to use up resources to do so. Long after the Rogue/Wizard is out of Scorching Rays, the Fighter can continue his barrage of attacks.

I don't think I would consider it trivial to pull off. Don't get me wrong, in the right circumstance, with the right spells, against the right enemy, it can be devastating.

One of my friends had this same argument, that its OK because a rogue will only get to use it once in a blue moon. That is true, a rogue/wizard wouldn't get it to often...

But...

What about the Arcane Trickster "Impromptu Sneak Attack" ability. Lets face it, most likely anyone who could really abuse this anyways is going to be an Arcane Trickster (as you get both sneak attack and spell progression).

That means that twice a day, a Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10, can do 33d6 damage with one standard action, either to one person or divided to hit up to three. Even though he does have to be fighting someone who is not immune to critical hits, and within 30 feet of that person(s), that still seems very powerful to me. No other class can do 33d6 damage using a 2nd level spell slot.

 

[dcollins]

Without question, assuming honest responses, the spell poll is a 100% accurate representation of the population it is measuring. However, the only population that is being measured is "total population of people who responded to the 2nd level spell utility poll".

Actually, I understand this pretty well. My Master's degree is actually in Mathematics and Statistics. I've given a lecture in the past on calculating confidence intervals for political polling. However, I find this poll here pretty useful for two reasons.

(#1) I am not trying to objectively estimate the opinion of the total D&D player base, which is what scientific polling is all about. I'm actually trying to figure out the best spells, which is a subjective issue in the first place. Voting for the Director's Oscar is restricted to guild Directors only, who in theory know best. Similarly, ENWorld has the most active, intense D&D players, who are likely the best informed about power-gaming issues.

(#2) We can do it for free. With such a small niche population of RPG players, a scientific random request poll is for all practical purposes impossible. A poll on ENWorld stands as the best ballpark representation until someone ponies up several (tens of?) thousand dollars for a scientific poll, which we all know will never happen on an issue like this.

 

[The Souljourner]

That means that twice a day, a Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10, can do 33d6 damage with one standard action, either to one person or divided to hit up to three.

A straight wizard of the same level can do 32d6 damage twice a day with one standard action using his 9th level spell slots (that the arcane trickster doesn't even get) to cast meteor swarm. Works on undead, constructs, whatever, and can be done from 1120 feet away.

-The Souljourner

 

[RigaMortus]

One of my friends had this same argument, that its OK because a rogue will only get to use it once in a blue moon. That is true, a rogue/wizard wouldn't get it to often...

But...

What about the Arcane Trickster "Impromptu Sneak Attack" ability. Lets face it, most likely anyone who could really abuse this anyways is going to be an Arcane Trickster (as you get both sneak attack and spell progression).

That means that twice a day, a Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10, can do 33d6 damage with one standard action, either to one person or divided to hit up to three. Even though he does have to be fighting someone who is not immune to critical hits, and within 30 feet of that person(s), that still seems very powerful to me. No other class can do 33d6 damage using a 2nd level spell slot.

Again, I don't see the big deal. First off, we are talking a level 20 character doing 33d6. It is only two extra times per day, and it still doesn't apply to undead/constructs/etc. nor does it work against concealment (Blur for example). How much damage does a Fireball do? How many targets can you affect with that? Fighting something with Fire Resistance, use Energy Substitution. Need to hit more targets, Widen Spell. There are tons of ways to alter spells for maximum efficency. There are only a handful of ways to maximize Sneak Attacks efficiency, and again, they don't apply in a lot of situations.

A character would have to be level 9 before they can do 1 Impromptu Sneak Attack. That would be 6 caster levels and 3d6 Sneak Attack OR d6 damage total (only 1 ray). Not a big deal IMHO. By level Character Level 13 you could do all 3 rays for 10d6 (20d6 total) twice a day with Impromptu Sneak Attack. As much damage as a level 20 Fireball, but just to one target (as opposed to many) and only if specific conditions are met.

Why penalize a player (character) for being creative?

 

[Brisk-sg]

How much damage does a Fireball do? How many targets can you affect with that? Fighting something with Fire Resistance, use Energy Substitution. Need to hit more targets, Widen Spell. There are tons of ways to alter spells for maximum efficency. There are only a handful of ways to maximize Sneak Attacks efficiency, and again, they don't apply in a lot of situations.

Since Scorching Ray is a spell, you can also maximize a portion of its damage potential through using metamagic feats.

Going with the Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10 as an example, by using a 6th lvl spell slot, our Arcane Trickster could memorize a quickened Scorching Ray. If he really wanted, he could do 66d6 damage in a single round (either by getting initiative, being invisible, or using his two uses of Impromptu Sneak Attack) by memorizing a normal scorching ray, and one quickened Scorching Ray.

A character would have to be level 9 before they can do 1 Impromptu Sneak Attack. That would be 6 caster levels and 3d6 Sneak Attack OR d6 damage total (only 1 ray). Not a big deal IMHO. By level Character Level 13 you could do all 3 rays for 10d6 (20d6 total) twice a day with Impromptu Sneak Attack. As much damage as a level 20 Fireball, but just to one target (as opposed to many) and only if specific conditions are met.

How do you only get 10d6 damage at 13th lvl? Assuming all 3 rays hit, you should get the following dmg based on class selection:

Wizard 11/Rogue 2 - 15d6 (3 5d6 rays), Base to Hit +6 (not including mods)
Wizard 7/Rogue 6 - 14d6 (2 7d6 rays), Base to Hit +7
Wizard 5/Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster 5 - 24d6 (3 8d6 rays) Base to Hit +6

I can personally see this as abusive. If you do not, then bring the character you are planning on making up with you DM and go and make it, and see how it does in the campaign. In the end it all comes down to how you play the character, how your DM runs the game, and if it causes any problems. If it doesn't, do it.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Trivial may be too strong a word, but Bluffing as a MEA is not exactly a difficult ability to acquire for a Roguish character.

I actually have no problem with a Rogue doing more damage in a round than a Fighter or Barbarian if we are comparing standard action vs. standard action and full action vs. full iterative attack. It is simply a Bad Idea to allow effects available as a standard action to multiply SA dice. It is too easily broken.

 

[Brisk-sg]

A straight wizard of the same level can do 32d6 damage twice a day with one standard action using his 9th level spell slots (that the arcane trickster doesn't even get) to cast meteor swarm. Works on undead, constructs, whatever, and can be done from 1120 feet away.

-The Souljourner

An 18th lvl wizard does have 9th lvl spells, a Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10 has to wait 2 more levels before he can get 9th lvl spells.

So, an 18th lvl wizard is using the most powerfull spell (dmg wise) he can ever use (barring epic lvl). And Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10 can do more dmg (to one target) then that already using a 2nd lvl spell slot (and potentially a twice a day ability or some other setup like getting initiative or using greater invis), and at 20th lvl (a whole 3 lvls behind a straight up wizard) I get meteor swarm as well. Also, that 9th lvl spell slot isn't going to be altered by Metamagic. Check out my Empowered Quickened Scorching Ray (using one of my 8th lvl spell slots) which can do 39d6 dmg.

 

[Saeviomagy]

MM allows for you to target but no attack roll is made, so again no sneak attack.

My point was - the original designation of sneak attack is so vague that MM IS a valid attack for the purposes of sneak attack. Specifically the original writeup just says that

a) The rogue must make an attack
b) The rogue must be within 30ft for a ranged attack
c) the various concerns about being flat-footed and the like

At which point sneak attack damage is applied

I was trying to prove that you need to use the 3.0 clarifications to have any degree of sanity. It just so happens that those clarifications include the rules on volleys.