D&D 5E Lightning Bolt should be better.

[Ancalagon]

I was with you until you said this. I agree that moving away from Vancian was brave (and good riddance!), but a level 5 wizard only has 9 slots. If he started with a 16 Int, and used his 4th level ASI on Int, he can prepare exactly as many spells as he has slots, so he's as versatile as he could ever be under the paleovancian system. Same with 9th level (the only wizard level after 5th where he gains more than one slot, potentially outstripping the prep slots gained from leveling). If he spent his 8th level ASI on Int, he can prepare exactly as many spells as he has spell slots.

So unless your wizard suffers from a low Int for some reason, he's never lacking a spell prepared that he wouldn't also be lacking if he had to do paleovancian preparation.

hmmm.... say I'm a level 6 wizard, and I have 3 3rd level slots. I memorize (for my 3rd level spells) fly, fireball, and dispell magic.

Under the old system, if we were being swarmed by hordes of goblins, I only have one fireball. But under the current system, I can cast fireball once, twice or trice (or not at all). That is much more flexible no? Perhaps I didn't understand you.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Well strahd is the most popular d&d published adventure

hey maybe your right on I don’t understand druids as well as I should

I do play d&d to have fun and win. I want to be effective in combat and outside of combat

Circle of land
Call lightning/moonbeam? Do you have to be outside for either?

Call Lightning might need a 10' ceiling depending on your DM (that is the most it could require). Most D&D indoors stuff has that though (not all, of course). It does 3d10 damage indoors, but if cast in a storm outdoors, it does 4d10 damage. Moonbeam neither requires you to be outside nor benefits from it. I'd say Druid is an extremely good class to be effective in and outside of combat given that you are a full caster with decent armour (medium + shield) and wildshape (which allows for all sorts of silly business). Both Divine casters have a ton of flexibility there because they know all their spells. All full casters can be good in both situations if they know the right spells. Other classes it depends on how you build them, generally - particularly subclass choice (but race/lineage, skill choice via background etc. can all factor in).

 

[houser2112]

hmmm.... say I'm a level 6 wizard, and I have 3 3rd level slots. I memorize (for my 3rd level spells) fly, fireball, and dispell magic.

Under the old system, if we were being swarmed by hordes of goblins, I only have one fireball. But under the current system, I can cast fireball once, twice or trice (or not at all). That is much more flexible no? Perhaps I didn't understand you.

You're agreeing with me, I think. TheSword was complaining that wiz level + Int isn't all that flexible. I'm pointing out that provided you don't neglect Int, the wizard is as prepared as he possibly could be, given how many slots he has. At no point does the wizard have total spell slots greater than 5 more than his prep slots (which is taken care of by having a 20 Int, very achievable at those levels [9-11]).

 

[TheSword]

You're agreeing with me, I think. TheSword was complaining that wiz level + Int isn't all that flexible. I'm pointing out that provided you don't neglect Int, the wizard is as prepared as he possibly could be, given how many slots he has. At no point does the wizard have total spell slots greater than 5 more than his prep slots (which is taken care of by having a 20 Int, very achievable at those levels [9-11]).

It is more flexible than 3e. Of course without scrolls and wands for little used utility spells (see invisibility for instance).

Im just saying this isn’t that flexible. A poster was suggesting that the spells-known system balances the massive reductions they have suffered in other areas.

Whereas in reality I think 9 spells doesn’t go very far. The idea that wizards can have a tool in the box for every eventuality is just not true. It is a touch decision now to choose circumstantial spells like see invisibility, knock, absorb elements or feather fall.

 

[Mannahnin]

Well, if there were no tough decisions, that would kind of obviate the point of spell prep, 'eh?

I do find that there's certainly more flexibility than in older versions, and the addition of Ritual Magic freeing up slots I might have spent on spells like Detect Magic or Comprehend Languages also gives more options.

You can't cover everything, but you can do quite a lot.

 

[Mort]

It is more flexible than 3e. Of course without scrolls and wands for little used utility spells (see invisibility for instance).

Im just saying this isn’t that flexible. A poster was suggesting that the spells-known system balances the massive reductions they have suffered in other areas.

Whereas in reality I think 9 spells doesn’t go very far. The idea that wizards can have a tool in the box for every eventuality is just not true. It is a touch decision now to choose circumstantial spells like see invisibility, knock, absorb elements or feather fall.

You mean the wizard actually needs a rogue to back him up? the horror!

One of my least favorite parts of 3e was that the wizard, with a modicum of preparation, could make the rogue near superfluous.

 

[Nefermandias]

Whilst I agree with your numbers points, the idea that lightning is the visual and thunder is the sound is pretty fantastically silly in the context of the spell Lightning Bolt. There is absolutely no possible way, if we agree that Fireball makes a noise (probably an enormous boom or woosh or both), that an electrical discharge, however magical, of the size involved in Lightning Bolt isn't going to be pretty ear-splitting - at the least equally loud.

But yeah it's an above average spell.

Ah yes, imagine DMing for someone who stops the game to argue that their lightning bolt should make no sound because the spell description doesn't say so...

 

[TheSword]

You mean the wizard actually needs a rogue to back him up? the horror!

One of my least favorite parts of 3e was that the wizard, with a modicum of preparation, could make the rogue near superfluous.

Sure. Another improvement for 5e. Some people still talk about 5e wizards as if they have schroedingers spell though.

 

[tetrasodium]

I was with you until you said this. I agree that moving away from Vancian was brave (and good riddance!), but a level 5 wizard only has 9 slots. If he started with a 16 Int, and used his 4th level ASI on Int, he can prepare exactly as many spells as he has slots, so he's as versatile as he could ever be under the paleovancian system. Same with 9th level (the only wizard level after 5th where he gains more than one slot, potentially outstripping the prep slots gained from leveling). If he spent his 8th level ASI on Int, he can prepare exactly as many spells as he has spell slots.

So unless your wizard suffers from a low Int for some reason, he's never lacking a spell prepared that he wouldn't also be lacking if he had to do paleovancian preparation.

I pretty strongly disagree with this. Playing a wizard in 5e always winds up feeling more restrictive than 3.5

Spoiler: side by side

Putting that in simplified crunched comparison you get this

Spoiler: screengrab of difference

You were right that at low levels the difference is in favor of 5e & that things flip at level 8, but from level nine on the 5e wizard is losing flexibility to an alarming degree. Sometime fairly early from 5ish on the marginal cost of preparing one cast of low level niche spell or two was extremely low with low level niche spell being a rolling target that expanded as the caster leveled to gain more & higher spell slots

We haven't even gotten into the fact that spell scrolls were practically expected thing to make vrs some kind of absurd minigame tacked onto xge133 for everyone but the wizard to enjoy. There is also the fact that A: spells were dramatically more powerful . Yes it was fairly often that the xge costs are lower once the caser level went up if prepared at current caster level for lower level spells, but 3.5 dmg 282 was explicit about the options and 5e scrolls are always cast at lowest level

Spoiler: creating magic Items

Without a wealth by level chart 5e doesn't even get to have a seat at the table of comparing spell scroll scribing prices

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Ah yes, imagine DMing for someone who stops the game to argue that their lightning bolt should make no sound because the spell description doesn't say so...

I'm pretty sure I've DM'd for a number of players attempting to make a similar point lol. Once I was one of them - Conspiracy X my character had a "Black Ambulance" - black as in it's like an undercover ambulance (I was ex-CDC, ready to autopsy some aliens), not an obvious actual ambulance. I needed to get across town in a hurry so I said "I turn on the siren and flashing lights". The DM was like... it doesn't have any... and I managed to grind the game to a halt for 10 minutes whilst I tried to argue that obviously as an ambulance, it necessarily had flashing lights and a siren, before eventually some shred of basic common sense/logic kicked in and I realized I was talking complete rubbish.