D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Yaarel]

I think there is a distinction to be made here. My sense is more that martial fans often do not want their characters to feel like spellcasters than not to feel "magical".

But even if we assume that you're correct. I suspect that almost all martial players and fans would prefer to get new, relevant, and powerful abilities at higher levels.

I see no reason why such capabilities require magical flavor, and so see no reason why this component of the fan base cannot be addressed.

Can you think of an example, where a Fighter advances from impossible to possible, without the use of magical flavor?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Martials only advance quantitatively, almost never qualitatively.

I agree, this is a problem. I hear some Martial fans complain about this.

But its seems like many (most?) Martial fans ... like it this way. These strongly resist the idea of a Martial feeling "magical" at the highest levels.

The only suggestion that these Martial fans seemed ok with is:

• Martial characters can use magic items. Because tradition.

• Martial character can keep up with casters by getting magic items.

And those martial fans who demand that have had their edition, multiple times. And every time they get their way, and martials don't get anything more than that, we get discussions of the martial/caster divide.

So, clearly, even if some fans like it this way, a large number don't and are frustrated by this.

Therefore:

• High tier Martials can have class design space to CHOOSE a magic item.

It is a bit iffy to explain HOW nonmagical characters can guarantee a magic item. Maybe call it "fate"? Maybe the magic item somehow finds them, for some guaranteed reason? The explanations needs work to sound plausible for a nonmagical character.

But in principle, it is ok for a Martial to do powerful magic, by means of a magic item.


I also think this is why, making "spells" and "rituals" two different design spaces, and allowing Martials to try perform rituals solves many qualitative differences between Martials and full casters.

And, by the by, this is in my opinion one of the worst possible solutions. Because if getting magical items is the only way for Martials to get ahead, then you need to prevent spellcasters from getting any magical items. And, frankly, it feels cheap. The wizard casts fireball and fly and invisibility because they are skilled and powerful. The martial casts fireball with a wand, fly with a cloak, and invisibility with a ring because they just happened to find those items. It doesn't make you feel powerful and special, it makes you feel like you got lucky and just happened to find something that would make anyone more powerful.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So... Like a spell thief?

Isn’t the spell thief concept generally about stealing the ability to cast the spell?

I’m talking about stealing the magic so that the caster fails to cast, and then use that magic for rogue stuff.

I could see an argument that sort of thing should just be a rogue ability in a high magic world, instead of like a specific archetype.

Not even just a high magic world. It matches the level of magic you end up with if you just have spellcasters in your 5e D&D game, right? If they’re rare, it’s not gonna come up often, but the more casters you use, the more it comes up.

Could also make it so sleight of hand or thieves tools can disarm magical effects if the user is also trained in arcana?

 

[Yaarel]

And, by the by, this is in my opinion one of the worst possible solutions. Because if getting magical items is the only way for Martials to get ahead, then you need to prevent spellcasters from getting any magical items. And, frankly, it feels cheap.

The idea is. The caster gets spells as class features. The high-tier Martial gets magic items as class features.

They both come across other magic items via adventuring, and being members of the same party, would split any magic items found any way.

The Martial gets the special magic item while leveling, not while adventuring.

The wizard casts fireball and fly and invisibility because they are skilled and powerful. The martial casts fireball with a wand, fly with a cloak, and invisibility with a ring because they just happened to find those items.

Pretty much.

It doesn't make you feel powerful and special, it makes you feel like you got lucky and just happened to find something that would make anyone more powerful.

Maybe. But it is a reallife archetype that a powerful warrior also has a powerful magic item. Compare King Arthur with Excalibur, Perseus with Harpe and other magic items, and so on. The idea is this archetype is class feature for Martials of high tier.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Can you think of an example, where a Fighter advances from impossible to possible, without the use of magical flavor?

Sure. There are like a million of them.

They weren't strong or fast enough, and they trained until they were. Their technique was not perfected and then it was. They learned a new technique. They gained a deeper understanding of materials/movements/psychology/the flow of time/etc. Their perception sharpened. They learned to perceive new things. Their body matured/metamorphosed/etc.(they physically grew into their strength)

Heroic fantasy is not littered with characters who can do heroic fantastical things. Magic is one justification for how these fantastical things can be accomplished, but it isn't the only one.

 

[Incenjucar]

D&D doesn't generally hold fast to narrative powers. We've had them in the past and they get ignored or bog things down, as they directly interfere with the story unfolding naturally.

 

[Yaarel]

Sure. There are like a million of them.

They weren't strong or fast enough, and they trained until they were. Their technique was not perfected and then it was. They learned a new technique. They gained a deeper understanding of materials/movements/psychology/the flow of time/etc. Their perception sharpened. They learned to perceive new things.

Heroic fantasy is not littered with characters who can do heroic fantastical things. Magic is one justification for how these fantastical things can be accomplished, but it isn't the only one.

I need a specific example.

For example, being "strong" is quantitative. Before they lifted 200 pounds, after they lift 800 pounds. That is a change in numbers, not a change in kind of ability, like phase thru solid objects. Similarly "fast" is before Speed 30, after Speed 60, not a change in kind like fly.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I need a specific example.

For example, being "strong" is quantitative. Before they lifted 200 pounds, after they lift 800 pounds. That is a change in numbers, not a change in kind of ability, like phase thru solid objects. Similarly "fast" is before Speed 30, after Speed 60, not a change in kind like fly.

It's not "strong" in a generic sense, it's "strong enough to do x". Maybe that's bend bars, or leap mountains, crush diamonds, whatever.

The point is, they can do something new because they are physically strong enough to do it.

 

[Yaarel]

It's not "strong" in a generic sense, it's "strong enough to do x". Maybe that's bend bars, or leap mountains, crush diamonds, whatever.

The point is, they can do something new because they are physically strong enough to do it.

Yeah, "leap mountains" is closer to the kind of qualitative change that Martials generally lack while advancing.

But this specific example, leap over mountains, might look too "magical".

 

[Incenjucar]

Warriors tend to gain abilities like being able to break things they shouldn't be able to break, use alternative senses, create shockwaves, endure things that should kill them, etc.

Edit: For example, there's a cartoon where Zangief just deflects a weapon with his sheer muscularity.