D&D General Maybe I was ALWAYs playing 4e... even in 2e

[pemerton]

the narrative the there must be some in-fiction indication of missing HP or otherwise there is no in-character justification for use of HP replenishing things. There must also be some in-character understanding of how these HP restoring things help.

Limbs feel heavy, but then rejuvenated. Hearts feel heavy, but then are lifted. Rapid breathing calms, racing hearts still, scratches and bruises no longer impede.

I think LotR (both book and film) exemplifies ways to think about this.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No thanks. Strangely enough I want the game elements actually be connected to the fiction. Like what you seriously suggest? PC cast healing spells and drink potions mechanically, because they are missing hit points, but in the fiction they actually do not do those things, as they're fine?

I dont know what he is suggesting. What I SUGGEST is that there isn't a 1 size fits all answer. you can't be broken and bleeding to death 1 second, have someone spend 6 seconds or less looking you over and get back up and be okay with no loss of ability in the real world... you can in games. so you need to make the injuries work WITHOUT over doing "oh he broke 4 ribs and sliced off your hand"

 

[Mannahnin]

If folks have ever watched boxing or MMA*, you'll be familiar with how a person can be beaten down and exhausted while showing relatively minor external physical injuries. Some bruising, reddening and swelling of particular areas struck, minor to moderate bleeding from fairly small cuts.

Obviously swords and axes and maces and other weapons have much more ability to break bones and cause major gashes, cuts, and piercing wounds than gloved fists and striking legs, elbows and knees, but given that none of our D&D heroes suffer injuries crippling them or impairing their mobility (unless we add optional rules), it's apparent that the fiction being simulated is of Action Movie-style injuries. Which are basically the same sort that boxers and MMA fighters are taking, except quicker to recover from.

Healing spells and potions thus seem to primarily heal bruising, swelling and exhaustion, although there's nothing stopping them from healing more serious injuries if the fiction of your game includes those.

*(Or armored combat/bohurt/steel fighting, where you mostly can't see the fighters' injuries at all under their head to toe plated mail armor; at least until they take it off)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

If folks have ever watched boxing or MMA*,

nope I don't watch real people fight... i do watch action movies about fake people though

you'll be familiar with how a person can be beaten down and exhausted while showing relatively minor external physical injuries. Some bruising, reddening and swelling of particular areas struck, minor to moderate bleeding from fairly small cuts.

but I do understand that I can be beat up and not look it.

I have a desk job. My buddy used to work on a dock loading and unloading... both of us would come home exhusted and not wanting to do anything... he never understood that I could do his job (still feeling beat down) but he couldn't do mine (he has been fired for inability to hold his tongue and/or temper) but BOTH are exhusting

Obviously swords and axes and maces and other weapons have much more ability to break bones and cause major gashes, cuts, and piercing wounds than gloved fists and striking legs, elbows and knees, but given that none of our D&D heroes suffer injuries crippling them or impairing their mobility (unless we add optional rules), it's apparent that the fiction being simulated is of Action Movie-style injuries. Which are basically the same sort that boxers and MMA fighters are taking, except quicker to recover from.

Healing spells and potions thus seem to primarily heal bruising, swelling and exhaustion, although there's nothing stopping them from healing more serious injuries if the fiction of your game includes those.

 

[Vaalingrade]

No thanks. Strangely enough I want the game elements actually be connected to the fiction. Like what you seriously suggest? PC cast healing spells and drink potions mechanically, because they are missing hit points, but in the fiction they actually do not do those things, as they're fine?

No, you're just trying to reframe it into something I didn't say. It's like I said: theatre.

After an exchange of blows, Warrior Guy is holding his side and limping a little, Roguey is breathing hard. There's no specific or explicit wound, just the impression of some kind of strain or difficulty in having been in the fight. So the Cleric calls up Mommy, some white squigglies come out of their hands and then they other guys stop showing strain.

Like any theatre, you don't actually have to crack an actor's ribs to get the desired effect. But that's what it is, an affectation.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

No, you're just trying to reframe it into something I didn't say. It's like I said: theatre.

After an exchange of blows, Warrior Guy is holding his side and limping a little, Roguey is breathing hard. There's no specific or explicit wound, just the impression of some kind of strain or difficulty in having been in the fight. So the Cleric calls up Mommy, some white squigglies come out of their hands and then they other guys stop showing strain.

Like any theatre, you don't actually have to crack an actor's ribs to get the desired effect. But that's what it is, an affectation.

Which means that in fiction the loss of hit point lead to an injury, albeit to one that was not very specifically described, thus there was a logical reason to apply a healing method. We are not in disagreement.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Which means that in fiction the loss of hit point lead to an injury, albeit to one that was not very specifically described, thus there was a logical reason to apply a healing method. We are not in disagreement.

'Breathing hard' and being under strain is not injury.

 

[TwoSix]

The overall idea is just to offer a mechanical representation of these "small" fights, the ones that don't represent a tactical challenge but that can still represent a strategic or logistical one.

Hmm, that's challenging. I see a few constraints here.

1) If you're looking to not represent a tactical challenge, then we're looking for a subsystem where we're not pulling out the battle mat and not using our combat powers. (I think?) The challenge is that if combat powers are usable, why aren't we just starting a combat?
2) If we're not using combat powers, the mechanical levers the players can use are limited to skill checks, utility powers, and possibly theme/PP/ED abilities.
3) To provide a strategic or logistical challenge, some resource of the players needs to be put at risk. That would generally be either healing surges or daily powers. Optionally, success/fail could modify the narrative, changing the shape of the next few encounters in a positive or negative direction. Those kind of rewards/penalties would generally need to be bespoke, as they're harder to generalize. (For example, defeating the small group of bandits leads to the discovery of map leading to a secret entrance into the castle you're trying to infiltrate, meaning the first few encounters in the castle will be less challenging.)
4) I think a more general problem with wandering monsters and minor encounters in general is that 4e pushes to set up scenes that either are a game challenge (high stakes combat or SC) or exist to push the players's narratives. The whole point of minor encounters is to drive verisimilitude (look guys, we're in the forest and we found a BEAR! It's so realistic!), which isn't high on 4e's priority list.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

'Breathing hard' and being under strain is not injury.

I see. So you mean the warrior is merely exhausted, and thus a healing potion or spell is applied? Why then the characters do not try similar method to 'heal' exhaustion levels if to them they seem identical than the loss of hit points?

 

[Vaalingrade]

I see. So you mean the warrior is merely exhausted, and thus a healing potion or spell is applied? Why then the characters do not try similar method to 'heal' exhaustion levels if to them they seem identical than the loss of hit points?

Because exhaustion levels are terrible and I don't use them.

But also because being strained and being sleepy are too different things in fiction. There's rarely a 'good night sleep' spell in fiction.