D&D General Maybe I was ALWAYs playing 4e... even in 2e

Well that's advanced geometry all right. At least you didn't try to turn a triangle into a rectangle!
Unfortunately--or, perhaps, fortunately--there is no consistent distance metric that can do this. That requires that you change something which is fundamentally invariant about the shapes--namely, their total internal angle. (All strictly convex quadrilaterals have total internal angle of 360, while all strictly convex triangles have a total internal angle of 180 degrees, and no uniform, consistent distance metric can change either of these values.) Circles, due to being defined completely differently from polygons will change if you change the definition of distance (they are defined as the set of all points a certain distance from a center). Chebyshev geometry does this, as does its dual cousin, "taxicab" geometry.
 

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If you have a table of 10 players... I really think going back and using AD&D would be the best choice for you because there just so much LESS of stuff at the table to use and/or remember. Roll a die, miss the attack, next person rolls a die, hits, rolls damage, next person goes etc.

Actually, it did not work that way, which made it really longer. that streamlining of continuous rounds giving each combattant a turn comes from 3e and before that I think it was an option in the black books. in AD&D, initiative was checked each round and we had a complex thing about declaring intentions and then resolving it. And then there was the case of creatures with multiple attacks, which were spread during the initiative.
 

Actually, it did not work that way, which made it really longer. that streamlining of continuous rounds giving each combattant a turn comes from 3e and before that I think it was an option in the black books. in AD&D, initiative was checked each round and we had a complex thing about declaring intentions and then resolving it. And then there was the case of creatures with multiple attacks, which were spread during the initiative.
Yeah, except for AD&D the rules were so spread out across all the books and not brought together that a whole bunch of us never used many (if any) of those rules. :)

If you didn't declare then resolve, or use speed factors, or level up characters past their racial limits, or all those other extra bits and bobs you had to so searching for... combat in AD&D at its baseline was much, much faster in my experience. But of course YMMV.
 

I mean, obviously, 5e doesn't support uberchargers or anything ridiculous, but high level spells that can trivialize or end encounters outright still exist. Concentration only goes so far, right?

See I never had problems tracking all fiddly numbers on my sheet (though I understand why some people did! It's attack bonus vs. Thac0 all over again), since those numbers rarely changed, what buffs you received could easily be written on a notecard, and only an antimagic field was going to turn all the layers off at once.

I didn't mind removing some of those options, but it feels like, as a result, monsters are made with the idea players aren't receiving a given buff spell. In Pathfinder 1e, the developers made a big fuss about Haste- assuming that most parties would have it, and making sure weapon using classes benefited from it. This however created issues if you didn't have the spell!

I recently had it pointed out to me that a CR 17 doesn't mean what it used to be- at first glance, it sure looked scary, but then I worked out in my head how my level 11-ish Storm King's Thunder would fare against it...and the result was pretty well.

If magic items are optional, feats are optional, and the designers don't even assume a given party composition, it seems like just about anything could throw the math for high level encounters out of whack in 5e. Yet I keep being told that's not the case, while simultaneously having the old hands tell me that 5e is easy mode. So my ongoing quest to figure out "what's the deal with 5e" keeps running into snags.
 

Yeah, except for AD&D the rules were so spread out across all the books and not brought together that a whole bunch of us never used many (if any) of those rules. :)

If you didn't declare then resolve, or use speed factors, or level up characters past their racial limits, or all those other extra bits and bobs you had to so searching for... combat in AD&D at its baseline was much, much faster in my experience. But of course YMMV.

I agree that AD&D was a big toolbox, with many more or less optional things like speed factors and segments, but I remember clearly that initiative problem and sequencing, and for me, in addition to the d20 system in general, the simple cyclic initiative of 3e was really a positive revolution. Too bad that they then decided to add the stupid "delay" thing which caused so much trouble. For us at least 5e has demonstrated that it's not needed, and that getting rid of it speeds up play considerably.
 

I mean, obviously, 5e doesn't support uberchargers or anything ridiculous, but high level spells that can trivialize or end encounters outright still exist. Concentration only goes so far, right?

It goes really really far, because it avoids the difference for a group between 10 rounds of buffing and surprise which could completely reverse the difficulty of an encounter in 3e. As for high level spells, sort of, because the opponents have them too, like in AD&D.

See I never had problems tracking all fiddly numbers on my sheet (though I understand why some people did! It's attack bonus vs. Thac0 all over again), since those numbers rarely changed, what buffs you received could easily be written on a notecard, and only an antimagic field was going to turn all the layers off at once.

The problem was that, with the incredible power of buffs, dispel magic and similar effects (there was a greater dispel for example), things kept changing, and that in addition to the duration of buffs, and the fact that sometimes they were applicable, sometimes not, etc.

I didn't mind removing some of those options, but it feels like, as a result, monsters are made with the idea players aren't receiving a given buff spell. In Pathfinder 1e, the developers made a big fuss about Haste- assuming that most parties would have it, and making sure weapon using classes benefited from it. This however created issues if you didn't have the spell!

Indeed, it was really something that I felt silly in 3e/PF/4e, this assumption that some buffs where there and that PCs had the right equipment. Really annoying and so glad that 5e got rid of all that.

I recently had it pointed out to me that a CR 17 doesn't mean what it used to be- at first glance, it sure looked scary, but then I worked out in my head how my level 11-ish Storm King's Thunder would fare against it...and the result was pretty well.

That's the problem of action economy combined with bounded accuracy. A single CR 17 is, on paper, a match for a level 12-13 party, but how many parties today really have standard array stats, no feats and multiclassing and no magic item of note ? Because that is the basis...

If magic items are optional, feats are optional, and the designers don't even assume a given party composition, it seems like just about anything could throw the math for high level encounters out of whack in 5e. Yet I keep being told that's not the case, while simultaneously having the old hands tell me that 5e is easy mode. So my ongoing quest to figure out "what's the deal with 5e" keeps running into snags.

The reason people are running into snags is because encounter calculation is incredibly hard to do in a non-calibrated game. 4e did it pretty well because it calibrated the PCs and calibrated the monsters and then it worked well when the monsters were about the same level as the adventurers. And that's it. After that, the encounter calculator works rather well if you don't forget to factor in things like feats/multiclass, magic items, high stats, synergies (and there are lots of them between parties, with foes, with environment,...), etc.

But it's also why the "adventuring day" is more about medium to hard encounters as a suggestion, because if one of these go badly, it won't go TOO badly. The idea is to have multiple encounters depriving the party of resources so that they can decide to stop when it gets too much. If you are pushing the envelope with only hard to deadly encounters, you are running the risk that an unseen synergy or stroke of bad luck pushes you into a TPK.

5e has many qualities for the type of games my friends and I are running, but people should realise that it is far less suited to Combat as Sport and tactical challenges, because it's more fuzzy and open-ended, and all computations of power are very imprecise on a system that is not calibrated.
 

Yeah, except for AD&D the rules were so spread out across all the books and not brought together that a whole bunch of us never used many (if any) of those rules. :)

If you didn't declare then resolve, or use speed factors, or level up characters past their racial limits, or all those other extra bits and bobs you had to so searching for... combat in AD&D at its baseline was much, much faster in my experience. But of course YMMV.
The good old days when everyone just did what seemed right and the rules might have come from an OD&D book, B/X, BECMI, or an AD&D book. Tell me what you do, roll some dice, next.
 
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I have argued multiple times that 4e's biggest problem was not mechanical....but narrative. For example, just skim through the 3.5 PH, now do the 5e one. They both read more like tomes or novels, yes filled with mechanics, but there is a narrative flow to them.

Now look at 4e's....it reads like a textbook. There is a mechanical "dryness" to 4e that is hard to shake.

I think 4e had a lot of really good mechanical innovations, several of which stuck around into 5e. I still think 4e's monster design (post MMI) is the best I've worked with, and is lot more engaging than 5e monsters.

That said, I do think 4e dropped the mechanical ball in a few areas:
  • Grindy Combats: This was more a product of MMI style 4e. Combats were often not just long, but tedious. The players would blow through their powers, and then it was at-will after at-will while the monster ineffectually fought until it died. This was notorious in many solo battles. MMII and especially MMIII designs fixed a lot of this, but the bad taste never went away for some people.

  • Magic Items: I think 4e had the most bland magic items of any system to date. I still remember to this day, my group of 12th level characters were given a special boon.... each of them could have any 14th level magic item they wanted...no holds barred. I was expecting my players to be buzzing with excitement. Instead, at the next session....not a single one of them had even looked, and once pressed, most just picked up some 3rd level item or something. Magic had become so boring, that the thought of getting a high level item didn't excite a single one of them. This was the greatest fail of 4e to me.

  • Skill Challenges: The original core math of the skill challenge was fundamentally broken, and WOTC had to errata it some time later. But the thing with skill challenges is they are really easy to run badly....and when you do I would rather watch paint dry. It actually takes some real work to make a skill challenge cool and engaging, and when you do its great...but I think WOTC really underestimated the work that needs to go here and didn't spend enough time coaching DMs and providing lots of good examples of how to make great skill challenges. Instead they just threw out the toolkit and assumed DMs would instantly use them well....and a lot of people didn't.
 

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