Order of the Bow Initiate is INCREDIBLY broken.

[Shard O'Glase]

Thos people can be bypassed.

Just disdarm the bow instead.

All but Quick-Draw solved by a disarm action instead of a Sunder.

Personally, I prefer the Knock-Down method. The archer cannot get more than one shot per round if he has to stand up every round. [/B]

People can be bypassed but it isn't always easy. And it may not eb able to happen round 1.

Disarm I prefer because if the players are money grubbing goons looking for insane loot I suspect the oposition has a similar mentality. Destoying a multi thousand GP item I can see if its the choice between life or death, but taking the lesser option of disarm seems to be the more reasonable 1st choice. And yes disarm is an attack action so can be sued with the full attack, though if it either doesn't succeed or the archer has quick draw you take more hits per round which makes you lose if it goes for 2 rounds only. (full attack round one while you partial charged, full attack round 2 with the 5 foot step and the quick draw spare bow).

Knockdown is really cool IMO, since chances are you'll be getting mutliple checks every round, and eventually the archer will fail the opposed check. Bt this is a 2 feat based tactic and while great it isn't the standard package, so not a big threat to archers everywhere.

 

[AuraSeer]

The Sunder rules are used only for melee weapons; a bow is a held object. Destroying it uses the "strike an object" rules, which do not prevent the fighter from full-attacking.

 

[Skullfyre]

That said, Zen Archery doesn't stack your Wis and Dex bonus. It allows you to use Wis in place of Dex.

That is true unless you are an Order of the Bow Initiate.
Page 33 of the S&F
Zen Archery: You gain this feat for free(see page 10). If the character already has this feat,then the modifier stacks with the Dexterity modifier for ranged attacks.

 

[The Little Raven]

One thing...

Some things to remember about the Order of the Bow Initiate.

1. Knowledge (religion) requirement. No character in my game ever buys this without being a religious character. So, any player attempting to pick it up JUST to meet the prereqs should be slapped down.

2. All of the abilities are worthless beyond 30 feet. Weapon Spec, 30 feet. PBS, 30 feet. Ranged Sneak, 30 feet. Zen Archery, 30 feet. The big advantage of being an archer is the ability to cause damage while your enemy cannot reach you. If you have to get within 30 feet, the negates a large part of your advantage.

3. Anything can be considered overpowered if you pick every single item, race, feat, and class that pushes towards a single goal.

 

[Skullfyre]

here is anincredibly Uber character I did(long)

So after reading the first post. I decided to see how an ultra uber archer character would look like(normally I do not do this but here is the one.)(used PHB,S&F,MotW,Epic,Dragon 296,3 arrows for the king and Traps and treachery(improved sneak attack(bumps it to a d8 ) and ranged sneak attack)
I do expect that I may have made a few mistakes but hey I did not want to do this all day.
Feel free to pick at him and tear him apart..
Feel free to ask me what the abilities do.
Also note that there are no magic items just abilities and feats.
Also note I did not add the +10 to hit/dmg from arcane archer(there was just too many calculations to do)
Mainly the to hits are for ability and levels and feats(virtual and non virtual)

Character Name : Uber Archer

Race: Elf Alignment: Neutral
Str: 15 (+2) Age: 466
Dex: 32 (+11) Handedness: Right
Con: 16 (+3) Height: 5' 4" Weight: 118 lbs
Int: 12 (+1) Hair: Black Skin:
Wis: 25 (+7) Eyes: Green
Cha: 19 (+4) Gender: M
Description: Size: M
Bio:
Languages: Common, Elven, Goblin

Character Level: 20 20 20 20 20 10 10 20 5 5
Class F Sor Rog AA DWS OBI HS Arn Trh Lss
Level 150

Defense
Type Total Base Ability
AC 21 10 11
Reflex +81 +70 +11
Fortitude +79 +78 +1
Willpower +78 +70 +8

Armor
(Bonus: /Max Dex: /Max Speed: /Arcane Failure: %)

Weapons
*Longbow (+2 Mighty/Composite) (Hand: Both/Attacks: +107/+102/+97/+92/Damage: 1d8+2/Crit: 19-20x7/Size: L/Type: P/Range: 515')
Ranged Sneak Attack:
*Longbow (+2 Mighty/Composite) (Hand: Both/Attacks: +116/+111/+106/+101/Damage: 1d8+8+17d8/Crit: 19-20x7/Size: L/Type: P/Range: 115')
Sword (Long) (Hand: Neither/Attacks: +90/+85/+80/+75/Damage: 1d8+2/Crit: 19-20x2/Size: M/Type: S/Range: 0')

Combat
Type
Melee +90/+85/+80/+75
Ranged +99/+94/+89/+84
Unarmed (1d3+2) +90/+85/+80/+75
Initiative Mod: +19 Speed: Walk 30'

Max HP: 796


Feats: Alertness, Armor Proficiency (Heavy) (1x),Armor Proficiency (Light) (1x),Armor Proficiency (Medium) (1x), Comabat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Far Shot, Iron Will, Improved Critical (Longbow (Composite)),Improved Initiative, Improved Sneak Attack, ,Improved Range Sneak Attack(out to 45 feet instead of 30'), Many Shot, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Mobility, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Power Critical(Composite Longbow), Rapid Shot, Shadow, Sharp-Shooting, Shield Proficiency, Shot on the Run, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus (Longbow (Composite)),Weapon Specialization (Longbow (Composite)),Distant Sneak, Bow Mastery, Exotic Arrow Proficiency(x3), Master Mounted Archer, Ranged Trip, Supreme Mounted Archery, Triple Nock, Uncommon Balance, Combat Archery, Craft Arms and Armor, Distant Shot, Epic Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow), Epic Weapon Specialization (Composite Longbow), Improved Arrow of Death(x2)(+4 to DC), Improved Manyshot, Superior Initiative, Swarm of Arrows, Epic Skill Focus(Hide, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Tumble, Wilderness Lore,Knowledge(Nature)), Epic Prowess(x4), Additional Magic Item Space(Rings,Bracers), Spell Focus(Evocation), Greater Spell Focus(Evocation), Legendary Climber, Great Wisdom(x4), Legendary Tracker, Brew Potion, Forge Ring, Zen Archery
Bonus Feats: Track, Pinpoint Accuracy, Dead Shot

Skills
Skills(Fighter): Climb (31), Hide (64), Jump (31), Listen (47), Move Silently (62), Search (45), Spot(54)
Skills(Sorcerer): Alchemy (21), Concentration (33), Knowledge(Arcana) (21), Spellcraft (21)
Skills(Rogue): Bluff (24), Open Lock (30), Disable Device (21), Knowledge(Religion) (16), Tumble (41), Balance (26)
Skills (AA): Craft(Bowmaking) (36), Ride (30), Use Rope (21), Wilderness Lore (60)
Skills(DWS): Escape Artist (31), Intuit Direction (27), Knowledge (Nature) (31), Sense Motive (27), Swim (22)
Skills(OOBI): already in other skills
Skills(HS): already in other skills
Skills(Arn): Animal Empathy (24), Handle Animal (24)
Skills(Trh): already in other skills
Skills(Lss): already in other skills

Equipment: Longbow (+2 Mighty/Composite) Outfit (Explorer's) Sword (Long)
Carrying Capacity: 175.0 Load: Light Total Weight Carried: 7.0 lbs

Miscellaneous
Funds:
Companions: Familiar: Owl
Magic Items:


Special Abilities: Automatic Search check if within 5' of secret/concealed door, Immunity to sleep, save +2 vs enchantment spells, Arcane Spells (Effective Level 25),Sneak Attack 10d8, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge(Dex to AC)(+4 to traps), Improved Evasion, Skill Mastery (4 skills at +10),Enchant Arrow +10,Imbue Arrow, Seeker Arrow, Phase Arrow, Hail of Arrows, Arrow of Death, Keen Arrows, Range increment (+200 feet),Concealment reduction 50%,Projectile improved critical +4,Safe poison use, Take aim +4,Consistent Aim 6/day,True strike, Ranged sneak attack (10d8+5d8),Close combat shot, Superior weapon focus(+1),Free Attack, Zen Archery, Superior Weapon specialization(+2),Banked shot, Primary Weapon +6,Track,Pinpoint Accuracy, Dead shot, Fletcher, Wilds Mastery (Favoured Terrain(Forest),Improved Track, Trackless Step, Woodland Strife, Sylvan Grace, Piercing Spell +6,Lodestone Arrow, Greater Enchantment, Bane Missile, Spellgift Arrow, Brilliant Energy Arrow, Heartseeker, Treehome, High Shot, Brutal Shot (10d8+5d8+2d8), Parted Foliage, Tree Running, Transport via Plants, Strong Shot,L1 Perfect Vision (+2 search),L2 Enhanced Dexterity (+2) ,L3 Enhanced Wisdom (+3),L4 Deadly precision (+40 feet to ranged sneak attack), L5 Incredible Range (+150' (30'/level) ,Total ranged Sneak attack 17d8

Weapon Proficiencies: Armor Spikes, Axe, Axe (Throwing), Battleaxe, Bayonet, Blowgun, Club, Crossbow (Heavy), Crossbow (Light), Dagger, Dagger (Punching), Dagger (Thrown), Dart, Falchion, Flail (Heavy), Flail (Light), Gauntlet, Gauntlet (Spiked), Glaive, Greataxe, Greatclub, Guisarme, Halberd, Halfspear, Hammer (Light), Handaxe, Javelin, Katana (2-H), Kusari-gama, Lance (Heavy), Lance (Light), Longbow, Longbow (Composite), Longspear, Mace (Heavy), Mace (Light), Mind-blade, Morningstar, Pick (Heavy), Pick (Light), Quarterstaff, Ranseur, Rapier, Sap, Scimitar, Scythe, Shieldbash, Shortbow, Shortbow (Composite), Shortspear, Sickle, Sling, Sword (Bastard/2-H), Sword (Great), Sword (Long), Sword (Short), Trident, Unarmed Strike, Wakizashi, Waraxe (Dwarven/2-H), Warhammer
Prohibited:

 

[Rackhir]

You forgot to add some divine ranks and divine bonuses from Dieties and Demigods. But other than that it seems balanced...

 

[Skullfyre]

You forgot to add some divine ranks and divine bonuses from Dieties and Demigods. But other than that it seems balanced...

yea well I look back and realize that I forgot the Peerless archer from Silver marches just to name one....
but regardless that character is too much and there is no way in any campaign I play in or run would I allow it.
be lucky if the character made it to level 12....

 

[Caliban]

Take a gander at this situation I set up:
5th Fighter/ 7th OOTBI
feats: Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus: longbow
Weapon Specialization: longbow
Zen Archery
Improved Crit: longbow

gear:
+1 composite longbow
+1 arrows
bracers of archery
some dex and wis enhancing items

this is really the kicker though. This assumes you have around +12 with both Wis and Dex ( not too hard if you anticipate the Wis bonus and stick your 2nd highest stat into it and with magical enhancement)

base attack bonus: +12/+7/+2
bracers of archery +2
weapon specilization/ superior weapon spec. +4
Dex and Wis: + 12
GMW on both arrows and bow: +10

so all modifiers = +28
so the final attack bonus is: +40/+35/+30

wow.

This also adds around +17 to the damage (+10 for weap enhancement +4 for weap. spec., +2 or 3 composite)

I pray my DM will allow me to use this.

EDIT: also assume the character is an elf.

This won't work as well if your DM switched to 3.5 when it comes out.

GMW won't give as great a bonus, and some aspects of archery are being made less effective.

 

[Storm Raven]

Re: Re: Order of the Bow Initiate is INCREDIBLY broken.

This won't work as well if your DM switched to 3.5 when it comes out.

GMW won't give as great a bonus, and some aspects of archery are being made less effective.

Besides, what exactly was it supposed to prove? That 150th level characters are ridiculously powerful? That's a surprise.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Order of the Bow Initiate is INCREDIBLY broken.

Besides, what exactly was it supposed to prove? That 150th level characters are ridiculously powerful? That's a surprise.

I was actually referring to the 12th level character that this thread was originally about.