Order of the Bow Initiate is INCREDIBLY broken.

[Staffan]

Largely the problem with the character comes, not form the class, but from the stacking of bow +'s and arrow +'s. I favor "bows are + to hit, arrows are + to damage, each costs half as much as a melee weapon" -- that way a Bow +2 and fifty arrows +2 cost as much as a sword +2

The problem with that is that there's no benefit to getting a +1 bow over a masterwork bow - both give +1 to hit.

 

[Tidus4444]

And Bracers of Archery.

And a Periapt of Wisdom +4 or +6.

And Gloves of Dexterity +4 or +6.


Even without it the AB is still +30/+25/+20, which you'll still rarely ever miss with.

Without the Bracers, you drop to +28//; without the Periapt and Gloves, you lose 6 more, dropping to +22//.

OTOH, a Fighter(12) could have (start with a 17 strength, add 2 for half-orc, add 3 for levels, add 6 from a Belt; that's a 28 Strength) a +23// AB (+12/bab, +9/str, +1/focus, +1/weapon).

Let's give him the Sharktooth Staff from Savage Species (a nifty idea for a weapon IMO). It'd be 2H for him, and does 2d6 damage -- plus the free grapple attempts when he hits someone. Criticals on 20, for x3.

If it's ... say ... "+1, keen" (yes, it's a slashing weapon), and our fighter has Improved Critical, the critical range goes to 17-20 (and could go to 15-20, if we instead went Fighter/weaponmaster). That's a +2 weapon.

Damage is 2d6+16.

With GMW on the sword (hey, of the OotBI gets it on bow AND on arrows, why not once on the staff, hmm?), damage goes to 2d6+20, and AB goes to +27//.

Throw in the Improved Sunder feat, maybe go for Knockdown, definitely get Power Lunge -- and buy some Rhino Hide armor. Anyone on the wrong end of this staff, is in for a world of hurt -- because, here's how it goes:

Round one, "Sharkie" pulls a charge out. AB +29, Damage rises to 4d6+66, or on a critical, 8d6+132 (a double and a triple is a quadruple, and all that).

If that hits, it definitely triggers Knockdown (by a wide, safe margin, even with minimum damage). Further, per the weapon, the hit triggers a free grapple.

There is a very good chance the target of this attack, if not a similarly-twinked strength-based fighter, is going to end up grappled -- possibly grappled and PRONE.

Next round, full attack option ... just deal damage automatically with each attack, at 2d6+20. Just as the weapon says.

So, you see, it's possible to twink a melee fighter out, too.

(and I rather like that "first blush" look above, I may have to try it in an arena somewhere ... heh!)




Except the Bow, in melee, isn't strictly a weapon, and so the odds of hitting IT, as opposed to the sharktooth staff above, are much better -- no opposed rolls involved, just an AC of 10 to 15. Power attack, anyone?



Largely the problem with the character comes, not form the class, but from the stacking of bow +'s and arrow +'s. I favor "bows are + to hit, arrows are + to damage, each costs half as much as a melee weapon" -- that way a Bow +2 and fifty arrows +2 cost as much as a sword +2; the drawback to counter the range advantage becomes: you run out of +2 arrows, eventually.

But OotBI isn't that powerful; now, Deepwood Sniper ... that's pushing it (hard). MULTIPLE archery PrCs on the same character, is where things get broken. [/QUOTE]

You make fair points about the dispel magic. I forgot that. And yes, it's true you can twink any character to exorbant level. However, as it has already been stated, this character that I made wasn't really a twink so much as a logical extension of the ootbi abilities. It didn't feature as much outlandish equipment or other books for that matter. Just core and Sword and Fist.

 

[Pax]

The problem with that is that there's no benefit to getting a +1 bow over a masterwork bow - both give +1 to hit.

I'm also in favor of dropping the MW requirement for weapons. All that does is (a) suck a few hundred GP extra per weapon, armor, or shield, and (b) pinpoint to the PC's exactly which of those items to grab and examine later (if only MW weapons can be magical, then, only MW weapons need be examined for possible magic-weapon status).

House Rule Alert!!

So, IMC, there are three changes I made:

First, the MW bonus is a "masterwork bonus", not an "enhancement bonus". Similarly for the bonus form Adamantine (it's a "material bonus" not an enhancement ...). Thus, it stacks with magic, and/or with Materials.

Secondly, for weapons, the MW bonus can be either +1 to hit (well balanced, or whatnot), or +1 to damage (especially effective cutting/piercing surface(s), etc). For bows, only +1 to hit is allowed; for arrows, either is allowable, but the arrow +1 MW to hit wouldn't stack with the bow's +1MW to hit.

Thirdly, I removed MW status as a prerequisite for magic weapons (etc). Any old ordinary shortsword could be a Shortsword +1.

So, a (MW) Serrated Adamantine Longsword +1 would get +3 to hit and +4 damage -- and pre-3.5, would penetrate DR as only a +1 weapon.

After all, if you PAY for each component of a particular build, you shoudl BENEFIT form each, right?

Still, as the alert above says, that's all solidly House Rule country.

 

[Pax]

You make fair points about the dispel magic. I forgot that. And yes, it's true you can twink any character to exorbant level. However, as it has already been stated, this character that I made wasn't really a twink so much as a logical extension of the ootbi abilities. It didn't feature as much outlandish equipment or other books for that matter. Just core and Sword and Fist.

You used a feat and a PrC from S&F.

I used a feat form S&F, and an item from SavS - and no PrC at all. Nor did I make an effort to severely twink the character (I could forgo the Knockdown, it's largely for flavor; if I had OA, there are grapple-related feats in there that might "twink" better with the Sharktooth Staff, too).

All I did was pick a neat weapon, and go for a huge-STR character.

IMO, anyone with a prestige class should expect to be slightly better in their specialty, than a straight-PHB-class characetr shoudl expect to be in theirs.

Besides, I could have gone Fighter(4)/Barbarian(8), and added in Rage (for +2 to hit and +3 damage, due to the +STR of a Rage).

My point was: for (almost) every broken PrC in the splatbooks, there are other options.

Replace the Sharktooth Staff with a Spiked Chain(also an exotic weapon), and you get reach instead of the grapple-and-subsequent-autohit; that stacks WELL with Combat Reflexes, for the added AoOs.

YMMV of course.

 

[Al]

Well, I deconstructed the OotBI over on another thread ([3.5] Archer Changes), and pretty much came to the conclusion that yes, they are phenomenally powerful.

The OotBI in action

Scroll down to the series of challenges and the power will be demonstrated. Before you post a rebuttal, however, please read the rest of that thread, as otherwise I'll just copy and paste if you raise something I've already dealt with.

 

[Tidus4444]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about the archer getting sneak attacks. as a quick question, if I play this character, after I'm done with ootbi what class should I take? Fighter for the feats? Rogue for the sneak atttacks? Deepwood Archer for more archery goodness?

 

[HeavyG]

Buy two pearls of power for the wizard for the GMWs, and it's not really that big of a thing. 9 Kgp a pop, not too much. Also, the wizard is hard pressed to do close to 200 points of damage with 3rd level spells at that level.

Actually, 18k gp is 20% of a 12th level character's wealth so it is far from negligible. Also, 50 arrows is far from enough to last a whole day's adventuring considering high rate of fire. This archer would probably go through 2-3 GMW's worth of arrows each day.

 

[Dimwhit]

bracers of archery +2
weapon specilization/ superior weapon spec. +4
Dex and Wis: + 12
GMW on both arrows and bow: +10

I haven't read all the replies, but all I know is if you factor in all that stuff above, the character had better kick butt!

 

[Numion]

Actually, 18k gp is 20% of a 12th level character's wealth so it is far from negligible. Also, 50 arrows is far from enough to last a whole day's adventuring considering high rate of fire. This archer would probably go through 2-3 GMW's worth of arrows each day.

I've never seen an archer go through over 100 arrows in a day, even at higher levels. Fights usually last only a couple of rounds and even archers can't just stand there shooting at the optimal rate of fire during all the fights. And if there is a lot of fighting against inferior opponents, then there is little point using the valuable arrows. Spellcasters of the group will need rest before even 50 arrows are used, at least usually.

Even though 18kgp is 20% of the money, it is money well spent, since just the weapons boost from +2 -> +3 costs 10k. And at level 12 GMW makes the weapon at least from +1 -> +4, depending on its abilities.

Besides, the point was that the build that was presented for the OotBI in this thread wasn't out of line that much.

 

[0-hr]

if I play this character, after I'm done with ootbi what class should I take? Fighter for the feats? Rogue for the sneak atttacks? Deepwood Archer for more archery goodness?

I think you'll want to look up the "Peerless Archer" in the Silvermarch book. Power Attack with a bow...