Order of the Bow Initiate is INCREDIBLY broken.

[Tidus4444]

Recalculate the character without the stacking Dex and Wis and you'll probably find that it comes back down to earth quite a bit. Also remember that some of your abilities only work when you are within 30' of your opponent. Even if you aren't taking AoOs, that's not necessarily a place where you want your archer to be.

Reread the class TiQuinn. At 6th level the class gets Zen Archery for free. If you already had Zen archery, it allows you to stack Wis and Dex. Also, my fortitude saves aren't that bad, I have decent con and I'm taking 10 levels of fighter.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Also, my fortitude saves aren't that bad, I have decent con and I'm taking 10 levels of fighter.

Ah, I thought you were going with a 5/7 character.

 

[HeavyG]

and I'm taking 10 levels of fighter.

That's not what your initial post says !

I will go ahead and point out an actual mistake though*. There is a line that reads "weapon specilization/ superior weapon spec. +4" when in fact it should read "weapon focus/ superior weapon focus. +2". So those bonuses are 2 points too high.

Also, this combo seriously puts a dent on the party wizard's daily spellcasting, so it's like you're using the power of 1.5 PCs to do the work of 1.5 PCs.


* At least, I hope it's an actual mistake or else I'm going to be pretty embarassed.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

A strong charater never ever limits roleplaying. If you're talking about out of combat skill like persuade and ect. I could make ths same argument of a fighter, woh only gets 2 skill points a level, or a sorceror, who gets likewise.

First, you're assuming I'm saying he couldn't be used for roleplaying. I'm not. So there isn't any argument of mine to counter in that regard. I'm saying that before anyone says he's too powerful, or strong, or however you want to put it, look at the type of campaign that is being run. If it's mostly roleplaying, or otherwise non-combat related - there are plenty of non-combat, non-roleplaying aspects to the game, such as tracking, or climbing, or whatever - then he's not too powerful. In fact, he's probably not going to be on par with other characters. Yes, just like the fighter, in many instances.

We have seen any number of threads throughout the life of EN World that equate power with fighting ability. Classes like the ranger and the paladin have been proclaimed weak because they don't match the fighter in the ability to deal damage. In campaigns that are combat-heavy, then maybe they are too weak.

My point is that the character we're discussing here is, indeed, a glass cannon (or an egg with a hammer). I can think of any number of ways he can be rendered relatively powerless in combat, as have many others - and taking him out of combat makes him almost powerless. He does one thing, and does it well. And that's pretty much it. Take him, or classes like the fighter, out of their element, and they aren't particularly noteworthy.

One can roleplay however one wants, but the player characters that put ranks into social skills and have abilities that relate to aspects of the campaign other than combat should get just as much advantage from their strengths when in their element as the character above gets in his element. To do otherwise would penalize players who have created characters that are focused on things other than combat, and would establish that combat prowess is, indeed, the only real indicator of power in the campaign.

 

[Tidus4444]

First, you're assuming I'm saying he couldn't be used for roleplaying. I'm not. So there isn't any argument of mine to counter in that regard. I'm saying that before anyone says he's too powerful, or strong, or however you want to put it, look at the type of campaign that is being run. If it's mostly roleplaying, or otherwise non-combat related - there are plenty of non-combat, non-roleplaying aspects to the game, such as tracking, or climbing, or whatever - then he's not too powerful. In fact, he's probably not going to be on par with other characters. Yes, just like the fighter, in many instances.

We have seen any number of threads throughout the life of EN World that equate power with fighting ability. Classes like the ranger and the paladin have been proclaimed weak because they don't match the fighter in the ability to deal damage. In campaigns that are combat-heavy, then maybe they are too weak.

My point is that the character we're discussing here is, indeed, a glass cannon (or an egg with a hammer). I can think of any number of ways he can be rendered relatively powerless in combat, as have many others - and taking him out of combat makes him almost powerless. He does one thing, and does it well. And that's pretty much it. Take him, or classes like the fighter, out of their element, and they aren't particularly noteworthy.

One can roleplay however one wants, but the player characters that put ranks into social skills and have abilities that relate to aspects of the campaign other than combat should get just as much advantage from their strengths when in their element as the character above gets in his element. To do otherwise would penalize players who have created characters that are focused on things other than combat, and would establish that combat prowess is, indeed, the only real indicator of power in the campaign.

Once again, this post could be applied to just about any character. Besides, this post said nothing about my skill point placement. FYI I'm taking max ranks in Persuade and Bluff cross class.

 

[nimisgod]

Not to sound too condescending but as a GM I don't find this OOBI broken. Of course its going to be a powerful character when you have two stats +12 mods!

Its the same as saying that the barbarian with a 40 str is broken.

I once had to GM a PC with an average save of 22+. Now that's uber powerful but not broken.

First and foremost, you're going to need someone to cast GMW (some cleric with a lot of levels too). So that thing can be dispelled...

Second: the build is very item dependent and specific. While I don't go around stealing the PC's stuff all the time, its just another weakness to take advantage of.

third: the wisdom bonus only stacks when within 30 feet. As an archer, that is dangerous ground. Bows are ridiculously easy to disarm or sunder. Since doing so infront of an archer doesn't provoke AoOs, any tom, dick and harry of a tank can do it.

Fourth: well, its a high level character. those characters are supposed to be powerful right? add to the fact that the enemies they fight are powerful as well.

In fact, IMO, the OOBI is pretty weak as archer PrCs go. Sneak attack isn't exactly the most reliable ability for ranged attackers (without invisibility) and that ricochet shot (name escapes me) is a full round action. Whoopty-frickity-doo...

Conclusion: Too many dependent factors to accurately say that its broken.

As previously stated, one the player can do, the GM can do better. Now make that archer permanently polymorphed into a fir'bolg and we're only just beginning...

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Once again, this post could be applied to just about any character. Besides, this post said nothing about my skill point placement. FYI I'm taking max ranks in Persuade and Bluff cross class.

OK, let me put it this way - assuming that the ability to deal lots of damage in a round = broken is an incorrect assumption unless your only measure of power in the game is combat ability. Doesn't matter which class you're talking.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Not to sound too condescending but as a GM I don't find this OOBI broken. Of course its going to be a powerful character when you have two stats +12 mods!

Its the same as saying that the barbarian with a 40 str is broken.

You made a lot of good points, but this one is perhaps the most direct - those are awfully high stats for a 12th level character.

 

[dcollins]

Actually, I think the original poster makes a fairly good argument. This particular prestige class does seem to pop up in every archer-build-smackdown argument that occurs on these boards.

His example uses only one core base class and race, all core magic items, and the only non-core feat is granted by the prestige class itself. He does seem to produce wickedly high attack bonuses, and I don't see any particular weaknesses over other character types.

The questionable parts of the analysis do seem to be:
- High ability scores
- The presumption that a 15th level caster can devote two GMW's just for this archer's benefit.

I guess I'd be interested in seeing an analysis using standard ability array and standard gear, pricing out all the magic items, prior to GMW being applied (more easily comparable to DMG NPCs, for example).

 

[Numion]

Also, this combo seriously puts a dent on the party wizard's daily spellcasting, so it's like you're using the power of 1.5 PCs to do the work of 1.5 PCs.

Buy two pearls of power for the wizard for the GMWs, and it's not really that big of a thing. 9 Kgp a pop, not too much. Also, the wizard is hard pressed to do close to 200 points of damage with 3rd level spells at that level.