Order of the Bow Initiate is INCREDIBLY broken.

[Tidus4444]

I think you guys were misunderstanding me. I did not mean that both Dex and Wis were at +12. I meant combined they were +12. Let's take a look at my character. Note that my DM allows me to reroll one of my stats as a D20... and I got a 19
Dex: 19 original+2 level increases+2 Elf+ 4 Magical= 27
Wis: 16 original +2 magical= 18

+8 dex +4 Wis= +12 stats total. Not too hard to get, if you've got a Wizard willing to cast a few buff spells on you, or if you're willing to shell out a lot of cash for the items to increase it. And really, at 12th level, a Wizard just got 6th level spells. With the exception of buff spells, 2nd level spells are inconsequential (Melf's isn't that good at that high a level). By 12th level the Wizard will be using Cone of Cold or empowered Fireball in lieu of Fireball as it's main attack spell, so 3rd level castings won't matter much either.

EDIT: Also, I'm planning on getting wings of flying magic item. This'll help me to keep within the 30 ft. range of enemies without having to expose me to physical attacks.

 

[Staffan]

Hmm... perhaps the "solution" to the possible brokenness of the Order of the Bow initiate would be to drop the Wis+Dex stacking with Zen archery. That does sound a wee bit powerful.

 

[Tidus4444]

OK, let me put it this way - assuming that the ability to deal lots of damage in a round = broken is an incorrect assumption unless your only measure of power in the game is combat ability. Doesn't matter which class you're talking.

Ah. My apologies. I did not understand what you were saying. Still, almost every character in the game can also be useful outside of combat if their player is good enough. With the exception of skill point placement, most characters are pretty equal in social encounters. So I really don't think it's possible for there to be a broken social class. However, due to the different combat abilities of different characters, it is quite possible to have a broken combat character. Glad we stopped this argument before it turned into a flame war.

 

[Tidus4444]

That's not what your initial post says !

I will go ahead and point out an actual mistake though*. There is a line that reads "weapon specilization/ superior weapon spec. +4" when in fact it should read "weapon focus/ superior weapon focus. +2". So those bonuses are 2 points too high.

Also, this combo seriously puts a dent on the party wizard's daily spellcasting, so it's like you're using the power of 1.5 PCs to do the work of 1.5 PCs.


* At least, I hope it's an actual mistake or else I'm going to be pretty embarassed.

You are right about that. My mistake. However, it is only -1 because I also forgot to factor in Point Blank Shot (hehe the acronym for that is PBS).

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Note that my DM allows me to reroll one of my stats as a D20... and I got a 19

Well, that's a bit of a problem when trying to judge power. You're using a House Rule, which isn't part of the game intially, and it throws the power balance up even more.
Yeah, OotBI is powerful, but archers are incredibly easy to ruin with a nice Sunder. Another painful thing, OotBI is close range, a Deepwood Sniper would have them dead before they could even see the Sniper.

 

[maddman75]

Bah - Archers don't bother me. Heck one of my players has a very similar build, only add four levels of rogue and a sorcerer buddy to throw Improved Invisibility on her. All the typical munchiness, with +5d6 sneak on each freakin arrow. And she's not the one I worry the most about.

HIgh level characters deal a lot of damage. At that point they need challenges that can't be overcome by doing lots of damage. Of course, you still occasionally give them huge combats to let them revel in their uberness - otherwise what's the point of getting to that level. Just so that the *important* challenges are tough.

 

[Tidus4444]

Yes well, it's not an incredibly big deal. 26 dex has the same power as 27 dex (except, I believe for some epic feat requirements).

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Yes well, it's not an incredibly big deal. 26 dex has the same power as 27 dex (except, I believe for some epic feat requirements).

From what I've seen in the many games I've run, it IS a big deal. An 18 takes TWO stat increases to give you a higher bonus, while a 19 only one. Which means you will have a higher bonus if you pump all your stat increases into it. A +1 difference can mean a lot, even at higher levels.

 

[Tidus4444]

Yes, a +1 to a stat can be big, but as far as this example it is a moot point. Keep in mind that the 26 dex/ 27 dex is with magical enhancement.

 

[Pax]

even with his magic gone, he still put up a formidible fight. The only thing magical that this relies on is GMW.

And Bracers of Archery.

And a Periapt of Wisdom +4 or +6.

And Gloves of Dexterity +4 or +6.

Even without it the AB is still +30/+25/+20, which you'll still rarely ever miss with.

Without the Bracers, you drop to +28//; without the Periapt and Gloves, you lose 6 more, dropping to +22//.

OTOH, a Fighter(12) could have (start with a 17 strength, add 2 for half-orc, add 3 for levels, add 6 from a Belt; that's a 28 Strength) a +23// AB (+12/bab, +9/str, +1/focus, +1/weapon).

Let's give him the Sharktooth Staff from Savage Species (a nifty idea for a weapon IMO). It'd be 2H for him, and does 2d6 damage -- plus the free grapple attempts when he hits someone. Criticals on 20, for x3.

If it's ... say ... "+1, keen" (yes, it's a slashing weapon), and our fighter has Improved Critical, the critical range goes to 17-20 (and could go to 15-20, if we instead went Fighter/weaponmaster). That's a +2 weapon.

Damage is 2d6+16.

With GMW on the sword (hey, of the OotBI gets it on bow AND on arrows, why not once on the staff, hmm?), damage goes to 2d6+20, and AB goes to +27//.

Throw in the Improved Sunder feat, maybe go for Knockdown, definitely get Power Lunge -- and buy some Rhino Hide armor. Anyone on the wrong end of this staff, is in for a world of hurt -- because, here's how it goes:

Round one, "Sharkie" pulls a charge out. AB +29, Damage rises to 4d6+66, or on a critical, 8d6+132 (a double and a triple is a quadruple, and all that).

If that hits, it definitely triggers Knockdown (by a wide, safe margin, even with minimum damage). Further, per the weapon, the hit triggers a free grapple.

There is a very good chance the target of this attack, if not a similarly-twinked strength-based fighter, is going to end up grappled -- possibly grappled and PRONE.

Next round, full attack option ... just deal damage automatically with each attack, at 2d6+20. Just as the weapon says.

So, you see, it's possible to twink a melee fighter out, too.

(and I rather like that "first blush" look above, I may have to try it in an arena somewhere ... heh!)

And besides you can do something similar to the sunder thing with almost every character. Sunder a fighter's weapon, steal a wizard's component pouch, ect., ect. Very few characters are immune to that kind of thing, including this one.

Except the Bow, in melee, isn't strictly a weapon, and so the odds of hitting IT, as opposed to the sharktooth staff above, are much better -- no opposed rolls involved, just an AC of 10 to 15. Power attack, anyone?

Also, the reason why I state that it is broken is because a good deal of this character's strength is related to the class. Superior weap. spec. adds a cool +2 and Zen Archery takes the cake. Without the class, it is "only" +34/+29/+24. Still impressive, but not nearly as such. However, you are right in saying that this topic is really more about the brokeness of archery in general rather than the brokeness of the class.

Largely the problem with the character comes, not form the class, but from the stacking of bow +'s and arrow +'s. I favor "bows are + to hit, arrows are + to damage, each costs half as much as a melee weapon" -- that way a Bow +2 and fifty arrows +2 cost as much as a sword +2; the drawback to counter the range advantage becomes: you run out of +2 arrows, eventually.

But OotBI isn't that powerful; now, Deepwood Sniper ... that's pushing it (hard). MULTIPLE archery PrCs on the same character, is where things get broken.