Polymorph Self Nerfed?

[WizarDru]

1) Balance. Polymorph is IMO one of the most overpowered spells in the PH. (Anyone who thinks otherwise will have to face one of my "polymorph wizards" in melee combat. And I don't care if you bring a maxed out fighter.)

How many hit points do your poly-wizards have? I'm curious what makes them so effective in your game. I'm not questioning that they are or not, it just goes counter to my experience. Our Wiz10/MoAO7 would be decimated if he made the mistake of actually entering into melee against most threats that the party has faced since at least 10th level. He almost learned this lesson the hard way against the mooncalf from HoNS. Umber Hulk on the outside, frail mage on the inside.

Currently, he uses it to maintain a grick form for the flight and low AC (although the low mobility and size means he rarely uses a touch spell). He's much more dangerous for a meteor swarm, maximized empowered fireball or even finger-of-death than he is for melee damage. The paladin leaves him in the dust there, and the archer is a living rail-gun by comparison. So I'm just curious how your mages are proving so successful in toe-to-toe melee, so I can understand why you think the spell is broken.

 

[Tar-Edhel]

Not really.

But I have several problems with allowing "natural" extraordinary abilities:

1) Balance. Polymorph is IMO one of the most overpowered spells in the PH. (Anyone who thinks otherwise will have to face one of my "polymorph wizards" in melee combat. And I don't care if you bring a maxed out fighter.)

Making it even more powerful is not a good thing. Even a seemingly innocent ability like blindsight can be extremely useful. In some situations it's better than the 6th level spell true seeing.

2) Where do you draw the line? Is improved grab "natural"? Rend? Spell resistance? Regeneration? Fast healing? The rules do not make any distinction between "natural" and "unnatural" extraordinary abilities. The DM has to decide about each and every one of them. (The "if it could exist in RL it's natural" approach is a good compromise, but it still leaves you with some very powerful abilities and a number of borderline cases.)

*waving his 'What Wizardru said' flag around*

Of course, my solution doesn't solve all problems with Polymorph....but it does push the frontier (that frontier where a spell opens to interpretation) farther away.

1- Your polymorphed wizard must be one tough dude if able to withstand combat. I am a 9-th level transmuter with 30 hp and I don't get nearer than my spells' range. Otherwise I'm toast.

Your wizards may have maxed their skills/abilities to become fighting machine. Their higher stats might be in CON (leaving INT with a medium stat, lower DC and fewer spells) or they burned a few feats to get HP... You get the point

And, as you mentioned, some 'innocent' abilities are indeed very useful. But I prefer to see my wizard hesitate to polymorph between a bat (to get blindsight), an anaconda (biggest boa alive, IIRC) to constrict or a big baddy to get into melee instead of seeing them polymorph time afte time in a hag 'cause that's the critter that gives the most (natural AC, insane strength, etc...)

Replace the hag by your favorite critter and the argument remains the same. I prefer to see creativity than munchkinism

BTW, the hag was just an example. I don'T want to start an argument about the effectiveness of a hag over another critter, please

Things have always leveled themselves IMC

2- I draw the line with the rule I offered: If i exists in RL, then you get it with Polymorph. I would allow Improved grab (since it relies mainly on 'natural' reach and speed), ink cloud jet (octopus), pounce, rake, poison, scent, ferocity, or whatever ability a RL animal gets in the MM. (Tried to find rending but wasn't able to... Don't know if I would allow it but at firt glance, yes).

I would even allow bioelectric currents detection in water if you polymorphed into a fish (many of them 'sense' ther environment electrically, through a line that runs from head to tail).

Don't forget that you get powerful abilities but at the cost of most of the one you use. If your mage polymorphs into a bat to see in the dark, He'll have a hard time casting spells or even relay the information to his comrades (I solved this problem by getting a pseudo-dragon familiar... Nothing beats that 60' telepathy they get )

Unfortunately, the rules don't offer much in term of natural abilities (if they exist at all in DnD). My rule offers a simple and logical (don't like that term much in DnD but bear with me for a moment) way to solve the problem. I never understood why Constrict, Poison or the shark's keen senses were EX. It just doesn't make sense to me. I am left with the impression that they simply forgot to add that list of 'natural abilities' somewhere in the process of writing the books. I decided to do the job for them

I'd be curious to know what you consider a borderline case...

 

[Iku Rex]

How many hit points do your poly-wizards have? I'm curious what makes them so effective in your game. I'm not questioning that they are or not, it just goes counter to my experience. Our Wiz10/MoAO7 would be decimated if he made the mistake of actually entering into melee against most threats that the party has faced since at least 10th level.

As much as I love to talk about "polymorph wizards", I think a thorough discussion would derail the thread from the track it was most recently derailed to . The point is that polymorph offers massive combat bonuses, and this can be exploited by any character.

But: The idea is to maximize the wizard for melee combat and polymorphing. A "regular" wizard won't be as effective of course. Boost your Con above all else and focus on spells, equipment and feats that improve your melee capabilities. The result can be very impressive. (I can post an example character if anyone's interested.)

(It is no longer an option in our campaign. Polymorph has been nerfed with extreme prejudice. You get a -3 disorientation penalty on "everything" if you succeed on a save, -6 if you don't. The details of the "nerf" haven't really been worked out, since nobody uses polymorph as a buff spell anymore.)

 

[Iku Rex]

I'd be curious to know what you consider a borderline case...

There are many.

What about abilities that are "natural" in a DnD context, like Tremorsense, Darkvision, All-Around Vision (Beholder), Flight (Beholder), Protection from Sonics (Destrachan), Keen Senses (Dragons), Poison Immunities, Superior Low-light Vision (Giant Owl), Amorphous, Steely Skin (Annis), Scare (Krenshar), Keen Sight (Kuo-toa), Slippery (Kuo-toa), Adhesive (Mimic), Mimic Shape (Mimic), Extract (Mind Flayer), Strands (Roper), Fire Vulnerability (Roper), Underwater Sense (Sahuagin), Freshwater Sensitivity (Sahuagin), Electricity Sense (Shocker Lizard) or dragon endurance?

(From a list I made in June 2001, before I asked the Sage - here is the complete list and my assessment of every relevant extraordinary ability in the MM...)

These abilities are natural, and are acquired.
Some racial bonuses.
Low-light vision (example from spell description)
Scent
Improved Grab
Constrict (example from spell description)
Camouflage
Squeeze
Engulf
Blindsight
Attach
Blood Drain
Rend
Pounce
Rake (example from spell description)
Tear (Annis)
Light Blindness
Amphibious
Charge
Transparent (Gelatinous Cube)
Trip
(Stampede)
Sprint (Cheetah)
Jet (Octopus)
Keen Scent (Shark)

These abilities are natural in a "DnD context", and are acquired.
Tremorsense
Darkvision
All-Around Vision (Beholder)
Flight (Beholder)
Protection from Sonics (Destrachan)
Keen Senses (Dragons)
? Poison Immunities
Superior Low-light Vision (Giant Owl)
Amorphous
Steely Skin (Annis)
Scare (Krenshar)
? Keen Sight (Kuo-toa)
Slippery (Kuo-toa)
Adhesive (Mimic)
Mimic Shape (Mimic)
Extract (Mind Flayer)
Strands (Roper)
Fire Vulnerability (Roper)
Underwater Sense (Sahuagin)
Freshwater Sensitivity (Sahuagin)
? Electricity Sense (Shocker Lizard)
Dragon endurance

These abilities are too "extraordinary" to be considered natural, and are NOT acquired.
Moan (Cloaker)
Frightful Presence (Dragons)
Paralysis
? Most immunities
Subtypes
Regeneration
Split (Some Oozes)
Electricity Immunity (Shambling Mound)

These abilities are clearly NOT acquired.
Petrification Immunity (Cockatrice)
Spell Resistance
Water Breathing
Sound Imitation (Green Dragon)
Icewalking (White Dragon)
Spider Climb (Some Dragons)
See Invisibility (Pseudodragon)
Rust (Rust Monster)
Speak with Sharks (Sahuagin)
Special Arrows (Pixie)

These abilities depend on matter leaving the body (at which point it will return to its original form), and are NOT acquired.
Acid
Spit Acid
Web
Poison
Disease
Paralysis
Adhesive (Kuo-toa)
Stench (Troglodyte)
Ink Cloud (Octopus)
Acid Sting
Acid Spray

These abilities depend on the new forms mind (the casters retains his own mind), and are NOT acquired.
Feats
Some racial bonuses
? Rage
Ferocity
Immunity to sleep effects
? Immunity to paralysis effects
Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (Ettin)
Freeze (Gargoyle)
Rock Throwing (Giants)
Rock Catching (Giants)
Mimicry (Green hag)
Natural Cunning (Minotaur)
Guarded Thoughts (Dark Naga)

 

[MerakSpielman]

*SIGH*

There aren't any Special Qualities or Special Attacks that are "Natural". We all agree on this, right?

Polymorph grants you Natural Abilities.

Polymorph DOES NOT intend for you to get ANY Special Qualities or Special Attacks of ANY creature. Why not? That would make it too powerful. It's power level is questionable even without these abilities.

There is no logical reason to forbid, say, a Constrictor's Constriction ability. It is Extrordinary, therefore forbidden. Remember, this is a game, and not all the rules make sense. They just needed some way of toning down the spell.

If you want to keep Extrordinary abilities, I suggest you make Polymorph a 5th level spell.

 

[hong]

*SIGH*

There aren't any Special Qualities or Special Attacks that are "Natural". We all agree on this, right?

You're a bit late.

There is no logical reason to forbid, say, a Constrictor's Constriction ability.

Exactly.

Remember, this is a game, and not all the rules make sense.

While Hong's Third Law says that thinking too hard about fantasy is bad, some minimal amount of thought must occur to prevent the game turning into nothing more than an abstract system.

They just needed some way of toning down the spell.

There are better ways of toning down the spell.

 

[Tar-Edhel]

Polymorph DOES NOT intend for you to get ANY Special Qualities or Special Attacks of ANY creature. Why not? That would make it too powerful. It's power level is questionable even without these abilities.

There is no logical reason to forbid, say, a Constrictor's Constriction ability. It is Extrordinary, therefore forbidden. Remember, this is a game, and not all the rules make sense. They just needed some way of toning down the spell.

Unfortunately, this is untrue...

From Tome and Blood, p. 95, you get:

Natural abilities include armor, natural weapons (such as claw, bite, swoop and rake, and constriction

(emphasis mine).

Unless the Tome and Blood version is not the final one anymore, you do get EX abilities (since constriction is an EX ability) if they are natural (the spell does mention that you don't get EX abilities but it contradicts itself by allowing Rake and Constrict).

Iku Rex: Impressive list. What was Skip's answer?

But since the spell gives you the 'gross physical abilities' of the creature you polymorph into without identifying what is considered 'gross physical ability', you need to find a way to distinguish gross abilities from finer ones which you wouldn't get.

Since all natural abilities listed in the spell are indeed abilities we see in the real world, I decided to define those gross abilities as abilities possessed by RL animals. It is more a house rule than a rule interpretation but it works well with me and the spell can be used as is, without toning down.

I wouldn't allow what Iku Rex considers 'natural abilities in a DnD context' because then you open a can of worm and I predict long arguments around the gaming table.

I might be wrong but I feel that you guys are making assumption about what polymorph does or not and consider it needs toning down based on those assumptions.

With the natural=RL abilities hypothesis, I get a very useful spell which is not too powerful at 4th level an can be played as written.

How could I ask for more?

 

[Tar-Edhel]

I think this as a better question:
Do you get 200 feet of flight if you polymorph into an young adult white dragon? I'm sure some of that speed is magical. How much is though? Sure would be nice if the MM were more explicit about this.

An easier one too

According to Tome and Blood, any land speed superior to 60 feet and fly speed greater than 120 feet are the result of extraordinary or magical abilities and are not granted by PS.

 

[Dimwhit]

Unless the Tome and Blood version is not the final one anymore, you do get EX abilities (since constriction is an EX ability) if they are natural (the spell does mention that you don't get EX abilities but it contradicts itself by allowing Rake and Constrict).

Do you have the Psionics Handbook? I may be thinking of another spell, but I believe the polymorph self spell in that book actually supercedes the one in Tome and Blood. At least I think so. I have no idea what it says on the matter, so it may be a moot point.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

There isn't a good Polymorph anywhere. Every version has been errata'd yet again. The one in the PsiH errata, the one in Tome and Blood, and the one on this site are not up to date.

The spell has been banned from Living Greyhawk for a reason.

The Sage said that Constriction and Rake are natural abilities - thus, in the MM where is says they are Ex abilities, the MM is in error. No real Ex abilities are granted.