D&D (2024) Polymorph temp hp remain

[Stormonu]

Not how I will ever run it. Once the character changes back, those temp HP go away, I don't care what RAW tries to say.

Though it is good to point it out, and that it probably should have a clause added in the rules, as I'm sure that's unintended.

 

[FrogReaver]

Not how I will ever run it. Once the character changes back, those temp HP go away, I don't care what RAW tries to say.

Even if I don’t run it that way I care what RAW says. At the very least it lets me compare 2014 and 2024 better.

 

[ezo]

We don’t know that yet.

True, but I am going on past precedence... which favors the PCs IMO.

The duration part is a good point that I overlooked. I’m with you the roar is bad.

Yep. That is my biggest qualm about it being useful. Make one of two changes:

1. Have it affect more than a single target potentially, like a 15' cone. OR
2. Have the duration be 1 minute with repeated saves so the lion isn't roaring each round...

IMO either of those two changes would make it worth using possibly. As it stands, I think 9/10 times the lion is better off attacking.

agreed. But it comes across a bit weaseling when it isn’t acknowledged as such.

Sorry for any confusion... I can be weaselly at times. (As I generally don't like the direction WotC continues to take D&D.)

I got it the first time. I’m just not sure why that’s being cited as a power up at all. In 2014 you could either just heal to prolong the form or use one of those temp hp abilities. Now you can’t heal to prolong it and since it relies on temp hp, you can no longer stack big temp hp with the forms regular big hp. It reads more like a nerf. I’m struggling to think of a clear use case where 2024 lets you stay in the polymorphed form longer.

The only apparent buff is armor of Agatha’s and the massive polymorph temp hp combos.

Honestly, I can't tell you. I am just going off of the limited exposure I've had to 2024 when I bother to look at it. I'm not embracing it in anyway yet I can see. Much of the changes that I would embrace are already house-rules or close enough to them or something groups have been doing for years anyway and it just feels like WotC is finally getting on board.

Your point in the OP about gaining the temp HP and then dropping concentration is what lends itself to a power up. Basically, it is a 4th level spell to give a PC a temp 157 hp... which is extremely impressive IMO.

 

[FrogReaver]

True, but I am going on past precedence... which favors the PCs IMO.


Yep. That is my biggest qualm about it being useful. Make one of two changes:

1. Have it affect more than a single target potentially, like a 15' cone. OR
2. Have the duration be 1 minute with repeated saves so the lion isn't roaring each round...

IMO either of those two changes would make it worth using possibly. As it stands, I think 9/10 times the lion is better off attacking.


Sorry for any confusion... I can be weaselly at times. (As I generally don't like the direction WotC continues to take D&D.)

Agreed with most all this section

Honestly, I can't tell you. I am just going off of the limited exposure I've had to 2024 when I bother to look at it. I'm not embracing it in anyway yet I can see. Much of the changes that I would embrace are already house-rules or close enough to them or something groups have been doing for years anyway and it just feels like WotC is finally getting on board.

We are going to try out 2024 soon. I feel like PCs are quite a bit stronger. Maybe not the same op tricks as 2014 but apparently a good number still exist and the floor on everything is raised!

Your point in the OP about gaining the temp HP and then dropping concentration is what lends itself to a power up. Basically, it is a 4th level spell to give a PC a temp 157 hp... which is extremely impressive IMO.

Yea. I think I might have got lost in the weeds there. I agree that use is OP.

 

[OB1]

The specific rule on temporary hp is on pHB 2024 pg 29. They last until they are depleted or you finish a long rest.

Hmmm, I would read that as the general rule for Temp HP that is changed by the specific rule around concentration spells. The Temp HP rules state that 'some spells and effects confer Temp HP' and again, the rule for concentration states that the effect of the spell goes away when concentration is lost.

So I guess the real question is which rule is the general and which is the specific in this case.

 

[FrogReaver]

Hmmm, I would read that as the general rule for Temp HP that is changed by the specific rule around concentration spells. The Temp HP rules state that 'some spells and effects confer Temp HP' and again, the rule for concentration states that the effect of the spell goes away when concentration is lost.

So I guess the real question is which rule is the general and which is the specific in this case.

A fair question and it’s at the heart of why specific vs general isn’t that helpful of a framework.

I’d suggest that even though spell effects end when concentration ends, that’s not actually true for damage or healing from concentration spells. So that rule already has defacto exceptions. Thus the way I read that rule is that ongoing effects end when concentration ends. But temporary hp by the rules is not an ongoing effect. It’s a last until long rest or depleted effect (similar to damage or healing).

That’s why I would go with temporary hp rules being the specific.

 

[ezo]

Hmmm, I would read that as the general rule for Temp HP that is changed by the specific rule around concentration spells. The Temp HP rules state that 'some spells and effects confer Temp HP' and again, the rule for concentration states that the effect of the spell goes away when concentration is lost.

So I guess the real question is which rule is the general and which is the specific in this case.

Both are general rules.

Seriously, though, in such a case, IMO it should have been called out in the spell that the temp HP go away when concentration is lost. I am sure (like others) that was the intent.

Going off of the other thread, does anyone KNOW if a Druid assumes While Shape, gains temp HP, and then leaves Wild Shape early as a bonus action, do the temp HP go away??? It doesn't appear so to me...

If a druid keeps the temp HP after leaving Wild Shape, I see no reason why the target of Polymorph would lose the temp HP because the caster stops concentrating.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Specific trumps general.

The rules in the description of Polymorph - that its duration is concentration up to an hour - are more specific than the rules for how temp hp works.

Compare to False Life - which has a duration of instantaneous. The temp HP for false life follows the general rule for temp HP.

 

[mellored]

Seems like an oversight.

I expect an errata to say the THP ends when the spell ends.

 

[Lazybones]

Agreed, the spell description is more specific than the general rule. Reading it otherwise would make polymorph, a fourth level spell, superior to power word fortify, a seventh level spell, and would make an edge case superior to the actual intended use of the spell. I'm sure we'll see an errata but just in case I'll add this to my list of house rules/clarifications.