D&D (2024) Polymorph temp hp remain

[FrogReaver]

I respectfully disagree. Healing and damage can never be part of a spell duration.

Okay, why not?

I think the THP wording is not good.

I think it’s perfectly clear, though it doesn’t handle the edge cases appropriately. So I’d agree it’s not good.

 

[ezo]

Which is totally fine.

Ok, you just seem a bit exasperated by it...

Yes. They should go away. Usually the fight does not last that long anyway.

But they don't because it does not specify it. What happens when the spell runs its full course is you no longer gain temp HP at the start of your turn--but it doesn't mean the temp HP you have disappears.

The duration of the fight is immaterial to the discussion. Only the length of the spell's duration.

I agree that this is debatale.
Which rule is more specific. Spell durations or THP.

It really isn't IMO. There are no specific rules here in the spells to apply. Only the general rules.

Temp HP are not magical in that sense. They can be granted by magic, certainly, but also many other features grant temp HP (like Inspiring Leader). Unless a feature or spell tells us temp HP end when something else happens, we have to follow the general rule for temp HP.

The question if it is too hard to grasp that healing and dealing damage has nothing to do with it. And that there isna spell duration rule that might be what you need to refer to.

I agree, bringing healing and damage into the discussion (except how damage can deplete temp HP) is pointless.

And I think common sense* (or RAI) should be the guideline how to rule if there is no clear RAW answer.

While I agree common sense should be the temp HP vanish when polymorph ends, that isn't RAW at all.

I also think temp HP from Wild Shape would go away if the druid drops out of Wild Shape or the duration of Wild Shape expires. However, nothing in the Wild Shape description specifies this as the case, so we are (once again) forced to use the general temp HP rule of expired at the end of a long rest.

And as a side note: polymorph should not be limited to CR = target level, but Spell level used to cast that spell anyway. The spell is unbalanced anyway.

Agreed! It should be (at best) roughly half level or CR if the target has a CR to begin with. We all know a 7th level PC is not the equal to a CR 7 creature.

 

[mellored]

I respectfully disagree. Healing and damage can never be part of a spell duration.

Where does it say healing is different?

I think the THP wording is not good.

I think it's just polymorph. And that it was supposed to have

When the spell ends, the target loses any remaining temporary hit points from this spell.

 

[ezo]

Yea, I think oversight as well. Like if you look at world tree barbarian, they specify that when the rage ends the temp hp vanish. That’s an example of specific overriding general.

Exactly. It is a simple oversight by the designers IMO and nothing more. They made oversights in 2014, so we can't expect perfection here, either.

And that is a very good example of specific vs. general. (I wish I had thought of it LOL!)

The light and any levels of exhaustion caused by this spell go away when the spell ends.

Yes. It even spells it out.

Precisely, but for polymorph there is no such clause (unfortantely).

I think the THP wording is not good.

So I’d agree it’s not good.

It is only not good when the edge cases fail to have the specific rule to override the general.

When the spell ends, the target loses any remaining temporary hit points from this spell.

That would do it.

 

[FrogReaver]

Exactly. It is a simple oversight by the designers IMO and nothing more. They made oversights in 2014, so we can't expect perfection here, either.

And that is a very good example of specific vs. general. (I wish I had thought of it LOL!)


Precisely, but for polymorph there is no such clause (unfortantely).



It is only not good when the edge cases fail to have the specific rule to override the general.


That would do it.

To be fair they could also specify in the temp ho section that spells granting temp hp with duration or concentration the temp go vanish when the spell ends.

Polymorph is the only real worry though, so fixing it would probably be better.

 

[ezo]

To be fair they could also specify in the temp ho section that spells granting temp hp with duration or concentration the temp go vanish when the spell ends.

Polymorph is the only real worry though, so fixing it would probably be better.

Possibly either way could really work. I don't know (at all) every instance of a feature or spell that grants temp HP in 2024, but it seems to be everywhere...

 

[mellored]

To be fair they could also specify in the temp ho section that spells granting temp hp with duration or concentration the temp go vanish when the spell ends.

Polymorph is the only real worry though, so fixing it would probably be better.

True, but i expect most THP is supposed to last.

Polymorph just got missed, since the original spell didn't have the issue.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Okay, why not?

I think it’s perfectly clear, though it doesn’t handle the edge cases appropriately. So I’d agree it’s not good.

It is not. As it is inclear what takes precedence. Spell duration or THP duration.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ok, you just seem a bit exasperated by it...

Yes. I am.

But they don't because it does not specify it. What happens when the spell runs its full course is you no longer gain temp HP at the start of your turn--but it doesn't mean the temp HP you have disappears.

The duration of the fight is immaterial to the discussion. Only the length of the spell's duration.


It really isn't IMO. There are no specific rules here in the spells to apply. Only the general rules.

Temp HP are not magical in that sense. They can be granted by magic, certainly, but also many other features grant temp HP (like Inspiring Leader). Unless a feature or spell tells us temp HP end when something else happens, we have to follow the general rule for temp HP.


I agree, bringing healing and damage into the discussion (except how damage can deplete temp HP) is pointless.


While I agree common sense should be the temp HP vanish when polymorph ends, that isn't RAW at all.

Spells end if the duration expire.

I also think temp HP from Wild Shape would go away if the druid drops out of Wild Shape or the duration of Wild Shape expires. However, nothing in the Wild Shape description specifies this as the case, so we are (once again) forced to use the general temp HP rule of expired at the end of a long rest.

Yes. Seems so, as there is no other rule that handles durations, except for spells.

Agreed! It should be (at best) roughly half level or CR if the target has a CR to begin with. We all know a 7th level PC is not the equal to a CR 7 creature.

 

[mellored]

Yes. Seems so, as there is no other rule that handles durations, except for spells.

And THP.