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A feat chain where feat 2 builds logically from feat 1 sounds like a cool idea. For example, we already have Magic Initiate, which gives you two cantrips and a 1/day 1st level spell, all from the same class. I could see a feat that builds on that, perhaps "Magic Adept", which would give you another 1st level spell and a 2nd level spell, also 1/day. A level 1 + level 2 spell feat is objectively more powerful than a 2 cantrips + level 1 spell feat, but it's a fair expansion.
That doesn't make sense to me. In a class based game you should just play a caster class or at least multiclass into one if you want that amount of spellcasting. Parcelling class features into feats and allowing stacking them would make me question why we even have classes, as they could all just be broken down into feat chains and people could build characters by combining them.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Based on the feat Chains we currently see, heavily divergent mechanics between power source archetypes will likely cause many nonchain feats to be suboptimal.
In a game where the basic challenges are well below the average PC starting point, what does suboptimal matter? If you're an optimizer, you already have a list of optimal and suboptimal feats, so chains won't really change much other than give you some more fun optimizing time. To everyone else suboptimal is irrelevant, since suboptimal still = good.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That doesn't make sense to me. In a class based game you should just play a caster class or at least multiclass into one if you want that amount of spellcasting. Parcelling class features into feats and allowing stacking them would make me question why we even have classes, as they could all just be broken down into feat chains and people could build characters by combining them.
Crawford said in the interview(I'm not calling it Sage Advice) that the goal was for feats to be classless class options. Essentially another way to multiclass.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
As I said in the Dragonlance thread - having Backgrounds carry a Feat with them by default would break mathematical compatibility with the current game in a way that none of the other changes they have made so far do. So I hope that these experiments are being kept to optional books and setting specific Backgrounds and not something they're thinking of putting into the Anniversary Edition.

The one way I could see this work mechanically is if they allow you to swap your +2 ASI at 1st level for a Feat, and you have to do that to take any Background with a Feat attached. Which I think would be a good idea to be honest, so I could see how they could make this mechanically compatible with the current edition if they do it that way.
Just to understand:

Your position is that if I take a feature for a background, which is often less powerful than a feat, move it to a feat, and have the background feature offer that feat so you are getting the exact same thing as before, but in addition others can during adventuring pick up the feature in place of an ASI or other feat, that breaks mathematical compatibility?!

Please show the math you are claiming.
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
Just to understand:

Your position is that if I take a feature for a background, which is often less powerful than a feat, move it to a feat, and have the background feature offer that feat so you are getting the exact same thing as before, but in addition others can during adventuring pick up the feature in place of an ASI or other feat, that breaks mathematical compatibility?!

Please show the math you are claiming.
No - I'm assuming that any feat you get with a background is just as good as any other feat. Otherwise why have it be a feat at all?
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Crawford said in the interview(I'm not calling it Sage Advice) that the goal was for feats to be classless class options. Essentially another way to multiclass.
Well, what he said was that Feats were already treated as the same thing as Class features by the development team. So, all Classes are already basically point-buy builds of unspoken Feat combos. Which was obvious in 2014 already, but really obvious once you listen to Mike Mearls happy Fun Hour making new Subclass options.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
No - I'm assuming that any feat you get with a background is just as good as any other feat. Otherwise why have it be a feat at all?
So that it can be picked up later. In this case, so others can have the mechanical effects of being a Knight of Solamnia or be an adept of one of the Towers of High Sorcery even if one didn't pick that as your background.

I ask again: if when taking a background you get the exact same thing except as a feat instead of a feature, and the features-as-feats are not better than other feats, what "mathematical compatibility" are you claiming is broken?
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
So that it can be picked up later. In this case, so others can have the mechanical effects of being a Knight of Solamnia or be an adept of one of the Towers of High Sorcery even if one didn't pick that as your background.

I ask again: if when taking a background you get the exact same thing except as a feat instead of a feature, and the features-as-feats are not better than other feats, what "mathematical compatibility" are you claiming is broken?
It's a free feat that gives you extra abilities that other folks don't get. You don't need a feat to belong to an organization so a feat like you're suggesting is not needed.

If it's not as good as other feats then my objection is that gateway feats that take a feat slot but don't give you the benefit of an actual feat are a terrible idea. It's a feat - 5e only gives you a handful of them and making one of your choices have to be a gateway feat that isn't a real feat is pointless.

ETA now that I'm not on my phone - the Squire and Initiate feats in the DL UA have real mechanical benefits. If a player who picks the Folk Hero class later becomes a Knight for story reasons he has to spend a feat to do it that the player who picked the Knight background at creation didn't. And the Folk Hero player got nothing to compensate for that. That, imo, is bad. It's even worse if the Squire feat is basically a nothing feat that is intentionally worse than other choices.
 
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Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
It's a free feat that gives you extra abilities that other folks don't get.
All characters get the effects of a feature. If that feature is presented directly, or granted as a feat that gives the exact same thing, that is still the same amount.

Please read what I wrote, I had already covered that and you had not addressed it.

You don't need a feat to belong to an organization so a feat like you're suggesting is not needed.
I never claimed that you need a feat to belong to an organization. I claimed the feat was giving your character the mechanical benefits of belonging to the organization.

Again, please read what I wrote. In this case you made up a different point to respond to that I never said.

If it's not as good as other feats then my objection is that gateway feats that take a feat slot but don't give you the benefit of an actual feat are a terrible idea. It's a feat - 5e only gives you a handful of them and making one of your choices have to be a gateway feat that isn't a real feat is pointless.
Feats are of varying strengths in the book. Actor usually isn't considered as good as Lucky, for instance. If a character wants to pick up the mechanical effects, they can. If they don't want to, they don't have to. As you said, there is no need to take a feat to belong to an organization. So this is basically "if this is what I want out of a feat, I'll take it, if not, I won't". Just like sometimes people will take Actor instead of Lucky or some other more widely considered feat.
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
All characters get the effects of a feature. If that feature is presented directly, or granted as a feat that gives the exact same thing, that is still the same amount.

Please read what I wrote, I had already covered that and you had not addressed it.
I think I cross posted a clarifying edit while you were responding so I'll ask you if you don't mind to go back and read that edit rather than repeat it. I do understand what you're saying but I don't think you understand what I'm saying - the upshot is that a player who chooses to be a Knight at character creation gets an advantage over the player who chooses a Background that doesn't provide a feat. It's especially obvious if one character takes the feat to be a squire later so they can gain those mechanical benefits. Either that feat is as good a choice mechanically as any other feat - in which case the Knight player is getting a free feat or that feat is as you say a "lesser feat" - in which case the Folk Hero player loses a feat just to unlock the Knight of the Rose feat access that he wants. And he does this with no compensation for that loss of a feat choice because he didn't get the free feat. And it isn't like the Knight background is a lesser background in compensation for the feat - it gives all of the benefits of a background and a free feat.

Unless the move is to let everyone get a free feat at 1st level (or trade their asi bonus for a feat) some background choices are just going to be better than others. And so the dude who was raised to be a knight will have an advantage over the folk hero who yearns to be a knight and finally achieves his dream. And while that may be "realistic" in a privilege of aristocracy sense, I think it sucks as a game mechanic
 

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