Selling items : illogical rule ?

[AllisterH]

*SHRUG*

THe magic item system is obviously designed so that found items are actually considered treasure.

The thing is, if you increase the resale value of items, wouldn't this DECREASE the incentive to hold on to any magic item found?

To me, the economic system of 4E is designed to do two things.

1. Allow the PCs to get any item that is their level or lower.
2. Actually make magical treasure be worth something.

I'm not sure how the "strip the enemy stronghold of everything AND then sell it" is actually D&D. In 1e/2e you didn't have this so I'm not sure why 3E's method is considered being true to D&D and 4E isn't.

 

[Thasmodious]

Unfortunately, for me, I have played D&D since it was just D&D. Throught advanced, 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 3.5, etc.

I want D&D to come to its senses and fix these broken things, so we can all get back to loving the system that has nurtured us through 4 decades.

I don't like that my choices are to downgrade to an inferior system, or stick with a system that has recently become inferior.

I want my superior system back.

So, just to be clear...10:5 was a great ratio for magic item sales and was just fine, but 10:2 is OMG BROKEN THEY KILLED D&D!!!? Right?

BD&D didn't even have rules for magic item sales, I guess you couldn't even do it back then, that sure was a crappy system, since, without the magic 10:5 ratio, the game is completely ruined.

While we're on the subject, could you cite the page number in the 3.5 PHB or DMG that dealt with acquiring land, building a castle, paying taxes, and negotiating with your noble neighbors? Hmm, you mean they weren't there? OMG 3E KILLED D&D!!!!

Well, how about 2e? They dropped the name level and automatically building a stronghold rules from 1e. OMG 2E KILLED D&D!!!

1e? There were such things as name level and attracting followers and "establishing a freehold." But how - magic castle fairies? There were no rules to determine how the castle got built, or how to clear the lands around it, how to get peasants to live on your land, how to negotiate with other rulers. OMG 1E KILLED D&D!!!!

OD&D? Nope, didn't have those rules either - wait for it... OMG ORIGINAL D&D KILLED D&D!!!

We've achieved a paradox, how about that!

Or maybe, just maybe, DMs and groups have been winging such things since the game was invented because rulesets to cover realistic economies, castle construction, and medieval diplomacy were never things the designers felt the rules needed to explicitly cover with tables, charts and guidelines. Instead, as has always been the case, the game system covers the basics of gameplay for fantasy adventure and the people creative enough to invent interesting personalities and design thrilling adventures and entire campaign worlds have simply adjusted the game to suit their own priorities and play style.

Next you'll be complaining that 4e is a failure because there aren't spaceship tables or rules for modeling interstellar flight, since your group likes to play swords and spaceships type fantasy. And, without the explicit rules to cover such things, 4e is clearly an inferior system to all other versions of D&D. And, of course, it is completely irrelevant that previous versions didn't have those rules either.

 

[Sashi]

But what do I do with that stuff? Do I create a big pile of stuff in my livingroom and just leave it there? Was it enough simply to take it and write it on my character sheet?

To me, that's too simplistic.

I want to take the monsters' stuff, then use that stuff to buy a castle, hire some soldiers and craftsmen and such, and become a nobleman in my own right. I want to negotiate for land, then defend that land, even though such an enlargement comes with taxes and duties to my liege. I want to elevate myself and make a difference in the world, and I will use the monsters' stuff to finance all that.

You could not do this in 3rd edition any more than you can do it in 4E. If a D&D character has a few million GP to buy a castle, the best thing he can do with it is buy a +5 sword of shocking bursting impacting zowie, because he can adventure around killing things with the sword, and the castle just its there. If you don't force the player to buy the castle, and instead just give it to him, the best thing he can do is sell it. Not spending your money on equipment that keeps you alive in the dungeon crawl is a good way to die.

If you start spending your personal wealth on money sinks like property and soldiers, you'll quickly stop maintaining level-appropriate gear, at which point you last until you fall behind the curve, and die. D&D has always been about killing people, taking their stuff, and getting better stuff (either by killing the people with it or selling that stuff and buying it). Previous editions of D&D have said things like "At 11th level the Paladin gains the title of Lord and has 6d10 first level fighters as followers" but those followers were patently useless in invading a dragon's home and spitting it, though they were helpful in making off with its horde.

 

[DM_Blake]

All the trouble a merchant would go through in trying to move magic items leaves me feeling the exchange value makes sense. Shops mean taxes, heavy taxes on something like magic items. And how many local rulers are going to want you selling the Sword of a Thousand Deaths to just anyone who comes into the shop (including that sneaky baron who has that haunted keep in the swamp and is always trying to overthrow the local ruler)? "Hmm, nope, best that I just confiscate that weapon now in the name of national defense." If I was a local ruler, I would keep a tight watch on the weapons and magic trade in and around my area. Of course, a shop is a great target for thieves (and unscrupulous adventurers) as well. Really, all in all, a shop dedicated to magic items, that keeps thousands of gold on hand to buy the things adventurers come to town with, is just not really practical. Now, some goods shops carrying the odd item or two makes a bit more sense. But moving those is still going to have most of the same problems, so they have to be able to expect a large profit margin to make it worth the effort (otherwise, just sell those chains as Blake says).

So, a magic item merchant needs to be on the road. Gotta go find the customers. This entails a tremendous level of risk as well. Besides the standard problems from run of the mill monster attacks and bandits on the road, you would be a moving target for thieves, adventurers, and every BBEG in the land. Why would the evil Lord Douche Bag buy one the items from your cart full of items staffed by a driver, instead of just killing you and taking everything? Clearly, you are going to need a substantial security detail, a number of skilled guards. Or you are going to have move low profile, with only an item or two, from city to city, staying off the radar. After all, if you roll into town heading a caravan with 30 guards, laden with chests of gold and items, the local nobility are going to descend on you like a pack of hyenas.

Once you've dealt with the basic problems of even getting such an operation off the ground, how are you actually going to sell the items? Hire a town crier to run through the streets shouting "powerful magic items in stock at Nevilles! Come get them!" I bet they will...after hours. No, between thieves, adventurers, and the local law "protecting their interests", you just have to keep it on the down low. So, you've got to establish a network of contacts, get your name in the right people's ears. Trustworthy bartenders, heads of guilds, militant clergy, local well to dos, the type of people who might be in the market themselves or who might discreetly discuss such things with those who are. Such a network also carries a lot of risk, word spreads to the wrong people (either local law or local evil guys) and all your security and careful planning aren't going to help much.

It's a tough business, a dangerous business. One that requires a high profit margin, because such merchants don't tend to live long.

Interesting points. A well-reasoned out justification for high markups on magic item sale/resale.

There are a few counterpoints to this point of view.

For one, even the evil Lord Douchebag knows that if he kills a magic item merchant now, he gets the items that merchant has. But if he deals with him fairly, he becomes a source of magic for years to come. Heck, even Darth Vader, arguably the most ridiculously evil bad guy ever, still dealth with people like Boba Fett and Lando Calrissian because dealing with outsiders is often preferable to killing them outright. At least until they have run out of usefulness.

Another counterpoint is that such merchants probably don't carry their stuff, or certainly not their best stuff, where anyone can get at it. In a system where brokering magic is as difficult as you describe, then they would make most of their deals by proxy, arranging payment and delivery at some secluded, clandestine location, without actually carrying the merchandise to all the negotiations. Try killing such a merchant, and all you get are his robes.

In such a bleak magic item market, often the merchants would work directly for a local power, such as a king or other local ruler. They would have the protection of the law. Sort of like a state-run institution. It wouldn't usually be Fred the Rug Merchant who moonlights as a magic item vendor. It would likely be Sir George the King's Trusted Advisor who has been appointed to oversee the magic trade.

And on the other side of the coin, there would be the underground. Much like the drug trafficking trade in the US, magic items would be moved underground, by violent gangs and even more violent criminal organizations. Anyone stupid enough to mess with these guys will most likely end up deep sixed with the fishes. And no, they don't deal magic items from a store front (usually), any more than your local drug dealer has a shop on Main St.

All of which fits into the niche market, and still undermines the idea that items can only sell for 205 of their value.

 

[robertliguori]

I am curious how many people in this discussion have worked is a field like antiques or art. Take Modern-era furniture, for instance. (something I have a bit of familiarity with). “Pickers” hunt down estate sales, look in old barns and beat on bushes looking for things of value that they can get for a deep discount. They then sell them to dealers and auction houses, also at a significant discount from the end price. Finally, they are sold to the general public. Since the market is small there is a lottery mentality at all levels. Most people make their nut off a few good finds with huge margins. Otherwise they are just getting by.

Antiquities and art aren't tools, they're luxuries. Magic items aren't just the tools by which adventurers earn their bread, they are the tools by which they avoid death.

A better metaphor would be precision machine tools. A lathe that can produce intricate aircraft parts down to hundredths of a millimeter is worth six figures, if you have a need for that kind of aircraft part. If you don't, then it's a metal lathe with neat features, and easily only worth 20% of its value, if that.

The problem breaks down when you try to wonder how that particular lathe came into existence. If there were only one airline assembly line, then that lathe is worth full value to that line, and much less to anyone else. But if that lathe only had its full value to that one airline industry, then no one but that industry should be making said lathes. Either there are other adventurers around, which means that there is a secondary market for enchanted items, or there aren't, at which point the items shouldn't be being made in the first place.


Really, though, the root problem here is that we're performing the functional equivalent of wondering how quickly the magical gnomes at the top of the Tetris screen can put together a L-shape versus a square. Just as the game of Tetris does not expect you to speculate on items outside of the game's scope, so does D&D4E.

When I play Dawn of War, I don't wonder why it's necessary to use a commander unit to call in orbital strikes. I don't wonder why I need requisition to build units, or why I can't order my scouts to raid the armory and steal Terminator armor since I can't get to that goddamned Relic without it (and can't build Terminator armor without taking the Relic, of course). When I play an RTS, these questions are out of scope.

When I play an RPG, they aren't. When I play Lord of the Rings RPG, I want the option to play plucky heroes fighting a desperate battle against a vastly superior force, only ultimately destroying the Ring through. I also want the option of playing the Council of Istari, united under our fearless and devoted leader Saruman the White and pushing back the Shadow with the power of Anor.

I want the option of going on an epic quest for Thorondor, gaining his alliance, and sending in a flight of Manwe's eagles bearing a White Wizard to challenge the Nazgul on their fell beasts, fighting an epic aerial battle, summoning the last of our reserves, and choosing to resist the call of the Ring and plummet into the Cracks while bearing it.

I want the option of bringing knowledge of the Valar to the heathen lands to the south and east. I want to touch off a religious revolution in the lands that were once Sauron's breadbasket, and watch as his dark military machine turns on itself, for hunger drives orcs more harshly than fear. I want to have rules for how Orcs differ from Men, so that it can be easily determined how long orcs can remain in fighting trim in a starvation situation, and I want to have a good idea of what kind of dark miracles Sauron has a chance of pulling out as stopgap measures before he can whip up evil grain to grow in Mordor.

I want the option of going into the dark places of the world, and making alliances with the creatures found there, until when the moment comes when I do claim the ring for my own, half of Sauron's army immediately turns on the other half, and the doomed forces of light make their suicidal charge, paving the way for my hand-picked forces to sweep in afterwords and pick up the pieces.

Finally, I want the option (however theoretical) of playing in Middle-Earth as a Valar who has decided that Morgoth had the right general idea after all, walking up to Sauron, poking him in the eye, and then crushing the ring in one hand while he's reeling.


To sum up all of that, I want a world that works. I want to know that when I interact with an element in the world, I can do more with it than is immediately obvious, and that the result of my idea might move the world, the story, and the game into a place the GM had not explicitly considered (without irreparably damaging any of the three). A system that declares elements in the world to exist only as far as their initially-assigned role is not an RPG in which I find interest. I do not expect perfection, nor even that every rule work in every situation. I do care that the system is well-designed enough that when I take an action or optimize along an axis not explicitly considered by the designers, the game not explode into unplayability.

 

[Thasmodious]

For one, even the evil Lord Douchebag knows that if he kills a magic item merchant now, he gets the items that merchant has. But if he deals with him fairly, he becomes a source of magic for years to come. Heck, even Darth Vader, arguably the most ridiculously evil bad guy ever, still dealth with people like Boba Fett and Lando Calrissian because dealing with outsiders is often preferable to killing them outright. At least until they have run out of usefulness.

If there is enough of a trade to sustain a steady supply for years, then there are more than enough merchants. Killing one with a good load of items to arm your evil minions or even to sell (at 20%) to fund your evil research lab is just the kind of move that has been used by motivated BBEGs for centuries.

Another counterpoint is that such merchants probably don't carry their stuff, or certainly not their best stuff, where anyone can get at it. In a system where brokering magic is as difficult as you describe, then they would make most of their deals by proxy, arranging payment and delivery at some secluded, clandestine location, without actually carrying the merchandise to all the negotiations. Try killing such a merchant, and all you get are his robes.

Agreed. And if you deal in magic items often enough to where this is a concern, you will have substantial security, both physical and magical in place to protect your inventory of magic items. This would take up a substantial portion of your income, supporting the idea that the 10:2 ratio is justified because of the high risk and expense of being a successful merchant in such a dangerous market.

In such a bleak magic item market, often the merchants would work directly for a local power, such as a king or other local ruler. They would have the protection of the law. Sort of like a state-run institution. It wouldn't usually be Fred the Rug Merchant who moonlights as a magic item vendor. It would likely be Sir George the King's Trusted Advisor who has been appointed to oversee the magic trade.

A. I don't think its bleak, I think its realistic (in the logical sense, not in the modeling the real world sense)
B. When is the last time you heard of the army having a machine gun sale? It doesn't happen. A state is not in the business of arming its citizens and rivals (except on the modern world stage, of course, but that is entirely a different topic). Sir George would certainly oversee things, though, taxing the merchants, demanding full inventory accountability and sales records, possibly requiring state approval before a sale can take place...

And on the other side of the coin, there would be the underground. Much like the drug trafficking trade in the US, magic items would be moved underground, by violent gangs and even more violent criminal organizations. Anyone stupid enough to mess with these guys will most likely end up deep sixed with the fishes. And no, they don't deal magic items from a store front (usually), any more than your local drug dealer has a shop on Main St.

They also wouldn't be buying from adventurers at market value. 10:2 if they're very, very lucky. Interesting to bring up the drug market, because I think it provides some insight. The end user buys a few grams of a product at a price, much, much higher than cost of production. There is plenty of supply and plenty of demand. The thing that drives the market is risk. There is a lot of risk on all sides in the drug trade and it drives up prices exponentially between production and end sales. The magic item market is a similarly very high risk market. The world's best thieves don't need to break into the palace and steal the crown when merchants are stockpiling items worth 10 times what that crown would be. Merchants and adventurers would both be obvious targets. Merchants will have their goods better protected, but adventurers can kill you and usually enjoy it.

Which is another reason why I think a campaign of merchant/adventurers would be a lot of fun.

 

[Dausuul]

20% of the final sale price is entirely reasonable for a transaction that is halfway between pawning old junk that only one in a thousand people might actually want, and offloading military-grade weaponry on the black market. All of this, mind you, in a points-of-light setting where no one has ever heard of eBay.

If the PCs want to undertake a quest to get full value for their magic items, that's between them and their DM. D&D cannot be all things to all players, nor should it try. We don't have rules for playing a farmer (use your Crop Rotation power to slide a crop into an adjacent field), a miner (Cascade of Picks is totally broken), or an apothecary (watch out you don't fail the skill challenge when you're making poison). Why should we have rules for playing a magic item merchant?

 

[FadedC]

To sum up all of that, I want a world that works. I want to know that when I interact with an element in the world, I can do more with it than is immediately obvious, and that the result of my idea might move the world, the story, and the game into a place the GM had not explicitly considered (without irreparably damaging any of the three). A system that declares elements in the world to exist only as far as their initially-assigned role is not an RPG in which I find interest. I do not expect perfection, nor even that every rule work in every situation. I do care that the system is well-designed enough that when I take an action or optimize along an axis not explicitly considered by the designers, the game not explode into unplayability.

The part I can't wrap my mind around is why you think the magic item selling rules is incompatible with this. There are plenty of good justifications for why this would be the default, and while you can pick at them, you will never find a RPG where people won't be able to pick at a game rule regardless if it's built around gaming or "realism". What is realistic to one is silly to another. The rules don't in any way forbid your players from trying to find better deals, it's just up to the DM to decide if they are succesful at this.

 

[James McMurray]

You could not do this in 3rd edition any more than you can do it in 4E. If a D&D character has a few million GP to buy a castle, the best thing he can do with it is buy a +5 sword of shocking bursting impacting zowie, because he can adventure around killing things with the sword, and the castle just its there. If you don't force the player to buy the castle, and instead just give it to him, the best thing he can do is sell it. Not spending your money on equipment that keeps you alive in the dungeon crawl is a good way to die.

You could do this with the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, and probably have a really fun campaign. At high enough level you could have even have a stronghold you ride around in that you can take on adventures with you.

I don't know how well the SHB sold, but if it was profitable enough, you can bet we'll eventually see a 4e version of it.

 

[Balgus]

You dont make the weapons. Rather, you have an adventuring party collect them as they do their daily dungeondelving, bring them back to your shop and sel them t a small discount.

You can also take special commissions to produce. The "recommended" retail price is listed in the DMG. but if something is so rare that no one is able to get it from random treasures from killing stuff, then I would sy you can demand a premium for it.

Like they say, something is only worth what others are willing to pay for it.