D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

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Protecting women from nudity (oh my) is the same. Ask yourselves, who are in favor of having sanitized art, is it for the children, or it to avoid offending women? (or both? i.e. seeing/treating women as children, who need to be protected from the scourge of Big Bad Nipples!!! and needing protection like a knight in shining armor, riding in to protect their purity and honour from the filth of sexual thoughts and mummy-datty bits being portrayed in art).

I can't help but think you're not paying attention. It's not about protecting women from nudity. It's about listening to their complaints about the portrayals of women in the art and removing the barriers that keep out of the game or make the game and hobby unwelcoming to them as equal participants.
 

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Removing all nudity from D&D books, have long since been purged. Why? Because middle america is puritanical. That's a known fact. Several of the opinions here, despite disavowals, are transparently repeating those assumptions without admitting to it. I have nothing against showing male nudity either, where appropriate

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Stop right there. WHERE APPROPRIATE.

That is the whole and entire complaint of people here objecting to the way women are portrayed in RPG books. It is not that there are naked bodies on display. It is that those bodies are being displayed in a context that is not appropriate for such portrayals.

A near-naked (or entirely naked) succubus in a sexy pose is appropriate. A near-naked fighter in a sexy pose in the midst of a pitched battle, is not. And the fact that you refuse to acknowledge this distinction for women, yet implicitly accept it for men, says a lot.
 


Removing all nudity from D&D books, have long since been purged. Why? Because middle america is puritanical.
A lot of that had to do with some really insane events in the 1980's in which the moral majority played a role in it wasn't the only confounding aspect to it. I'm only pointing that out given that if you are relatively young and from another country you won't have the entire picture.
 
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Extreme forms of political correctness reduces all of us...

Eh. "Avoid cheesecake females in combat," does not strike me as particularly extreme. To me, this seems to be blowing the issue out of proportion. We are talking about the small collection of artwork in a set of game books. We are *not* talking about removing art from all public access, or something. You want cheesecake fantasy art? You can get a ton of it, for free, at places like deviantART. No game books required. Knock yourself out.

Then, remember that if it is readily available to the public for free, arguments of it being "censored" are pretty weak.

Protecting women from nudity (oh my) is the same.

As others have said - nobody is "protecting women from nudity". We are merely suggesting it is respectful to show them in the same style of dress as their male counterparts, which are generally depicted in gear appropriate to their role.

How hard is that to get? If your male character is in a thoroughly non-sexual set of plate armor, the female should be too. Because fighting isn't about whether you have breasts. Nor is it about showing off thighs. It is about making the enemy bleed, while not bleeding yourself.

Pretty darned simple.
 
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Presumably, given that you think that moral philosophy ultimately comes down to a personal system of beliefs, you don't think there is much difference between calling something wrong, and expressing a pesonal dislike. So I don't really understand your contrast.

First, morality does come down to a set of personal beliefs; there is no objectively-correct system of morality.

The contrast is here is that while I believe that artwork is, at best, supererogatory, I wanted to debate with the people who felt that it could be held to the level of positive duties - which is different from making a statement of personal taste. There's a difference between not liking something and finding it immoral, even if both are personal judgments.

No. I'm showing that you're wrong to assert that the negative duty you referred to, and the positive duty you referred to, conflict. That you have a duty to X, and a negative right not to be forced to X, are not in conflict. The only conflict that would arise is someone tried to force you to X. And no one here is trying to force anyone to do anything. They are not "suppressing" (your word) or "censoring" (a word others have used) anything. They are simply exhorting WotC to do one thing rather than another.

You're misstating the negative duty here. It's not a right not to be "forced" to do anything. It's a duty not to suppress someone else's creative expression because it disagrees with your value system. There's no "forcing" going on.

No one is asking for actions to be "curbed". They are asking for people not to perform them. In this context, they are asking them not to create offensive/sexist/racist things.

Asking for something to be "curbed" is asking for something not to be performed; what distinction are you drawing here? In this instance, they're asking for people not to create things that they disagree with. If that's because they personally don't care for it, that's one thing. If it's because they find such things to be immoral, then I disagree with that particular value judgment.

Do you have any theory of how people can fulfill this duty in an environment in which the work in question is produced only if there is a commercial market for it? For instance, am I obliged to buy copies of every work every person in the world wants to publish? What if I run out of money? Or what to spend my money on other things?

You're confusing two separate things here, since not buying something is not controlling the distribution. Likewise, the instance of judging what to publish or not publish based on marketability issues is not a moral quandary.

But you have presented no argument that deciding to portray image X rather than image Y is not a decision to which moral considerations are relevant.

One can't prove a negative. My argument is that there's no basis to say that such a decision is a moral one, when viewed via deontological ethics (e.g. in terms of the act of portraying an image, unto itself).

It would be nice to see some arguments for these claims. (That a picture is not a real person is true. But production of it is still an action. What is the argument that there are some actions upon which morality has no bearing as to whether or not we may, or ought to, perform them?)

You have not actually produced any argument that images cannot, by their nature, be offensive, sexist or racist.

See above. I've explained my reasoning on this many times throughout this thread. If you want to say that something has a particular quality, you're the one who needs to support that theory (insofar as such a thing can be supported, since this is still coming down to personal value systems).

And your arguments that particular images aren't sexist because perhaps (for instance) the picture is of a woman arching her back after tripping while walking to a cocktail party is pretty weak - in part because you haven't really addressed the question of why the artist thinks that, of all the things in the world that might be drawn, that image is worth presenting.

On the contrary, the issue of contextualization is an exceptionally strong argument, which I presume is why you haven't offered anything to refute it this far.

The question of "why" the artist painted something a particular way could not be less relevant. Their motivations are impossible to determine; even if they flat-out tell you why they did, you can't determine if they're being honest or not. There's a reason why intent doesn't matter when determining the morality of an action (save for the question of if intent exists or not).

I'm not going to refer you to particular pages in essays or books by Gardner, Duff et al - their works are well-known by those who work in the field and Google or Wikipedia will give you lists of their principal works.

So you cite a source that you say backs your claims, and then can't cite a source for them? That's not a very credible way to present what you hold to be supporting evidence.

On the issue of authority - you are the one who introduced technical notions from moral philosophy (eg the character of deontological vs consequentialist reasoning) into the debate, as if they made a difference.

They make a difference insofar as they allow a framework for facilitating the discussion of morality - otherwise it tends to be difficult to describe something that's this intrinsic for most people. It was you who started citing specific individuals as an appeal to authority.

My view is that they don't - the only consequentialist argument being made in this thread is the "marketing" one, that racist/sexist artwork loses customers - and unless you think that WotC has a duty to publish such artwork even if that costs its customers then that particular consequentialist argument looks pretty sound to me, assuming its empirical premises are sound.

Leaving aside the uncertainty in just how much the nature of the artwork actually affects sales (as well as the fact that you couched your personal statement of belief - that this unspecified artwork is "racist/sexist" - as something objective), I don't have an objection to that particular argument. However, I choose to look at the question posed in this thread - what WotC "should" do - as beng in a moral context, through which I view it deontologically and respond accordingly.

But the main argument being run by posters on this thread - namely, that sexist and racist artwork is wrong because derogatory, offensive et al - is a quintessential example of a deontological argument.

It is, and I refute that argument for the reasons specified above. Artwork, regardless of its content, is never morally wrong.

In contending that it's not, for instance because it turns in part (but not completely) on the hurt felt by those who are derided by such artwork, all you show is that you don't understand what contrasts deontological and consequentialist arguments in moral philosophy.

You're confusing a debate over where to set specific actions on the tiers of duty with a different form of moral philosophy altogether, here. It's entirely possible for two deontologists to disagree.

Your political and moral opinions are your own business, and no concern of mine. My only concern in responding to you on these points is with technical accuracy in my professional field. (And on this point, I note that you use the phrase "what action is it", but give no account of what makes an action the action that it is. In particular, you have not provided an account of the individuation of actions that does not make reference either to the results, or the intended results, of the action - be those results internal and necessary, or contingent.)

You say that, but you've made statements of moral judgment and evaluation above, so I look with skepticism on your claim that you're only concerned with the technical accuracy of what constitutes deontology. Even then, that's something of a tricky needle to thread, since it seems to rely on nothing more than judging someone's stated value system for its fidelity to how an authority figure defined that system (which necessarily breaks down when you realize that there are plenty of schools of thought about any moral philosophy, and so checking for strict adherence to one or the other is futile).

Insofar as trying to ask what makes a specific action a specific action, I can only guess that you're asking for a level of detail so specific as to be virtually non-existent. Can you tell me what makes the act of running running, as opposed to jogging? Or hustling? Or walking very quickly?
 

Not sure what the thesaurus commment is supposed to be about, you're wanting alternate words for 'coloured' or 'oriental'... why exactly?
Are caucasians not colored?

And yes, Oriental is also offensive. So sayeth my wife. You don't get to pick what names she's offended by.
 

Not sure what the thesaurus commment is supposed to be about, you're wanting alternate words for 'coloured' or 'oriental'... why exactly?

Tardy to respond due to RW stuff...

Essentially, both of those terms have been excised from polite discussion of race for...ohhhhh...40 years or so.
 

Horse patootey. It is more difficult to find good examples of character art and miniatures for female fighters in combat who have realistic armor on and who are not being portrayed as silly.

I don't think I've ever had trouble finding well-armored female minis, particularly for fighters.
 

Extreme forms of political correctness reduces all of us, because it enforces a warped / skewed view of sexuality based on shame, which creates far more problems than it solves.

What is extreme about suggesting that it is stupid to persistently draw women fighting Orcs and delving into dungeons in their underwear? Do you really think lingerie should have a +5 AC bonus? Or is that, I dunno, stupid?

Nudity and skimpy clothes are not shameful, but stupidity is. Being naked or sexual in a safe and appropriate place to do that, no problem. Being naked or sexual in a place where that is stupid or inappropriate for the setting, especially when only one gender is shown being stupid, that's a problem.

Picture executives in a boardroom. They are all dressed appropriately for the job they are doing, eg, in normal business clothes. Except that there is one woman there, and she is in a bikini, posing with her boobs thrust out in a seductive way. Is she being portrayed as an equal to the men, doing the same job, or is she being shown as being there only to display her body for other people's pleasure? The power equation doesn't change when we're talking about male and female adventurers, with only the women being posed and dressed for sex appeal rather than being shown as effective at their job and appropriately dressed to do that job seriously.

Take that same woman in a bikini and put her on a beach with a man in tight little swimming shorts, with both of them posing to show their bodies, and the power dynamic vanishes. It is no longer stupid or unequal for her to be dressed that way, so that image is not offensive even though it shows more skin in total. Nudity is not the problem. Stupidity is.


Protecting women from nudity (oh my) is the same. Ask yourselves, who are in favor of having sanitized art, is it for the children, or it to avoid offending women? (or both? i.e. seeing/treating women as children, who need to be protected from the scourge of Big Bad Nipples!!! and needing protection like a knight in shining armor, riding in to protect their purity and honour from the filth of sexual thoughts and mummy-datty bits being portrayed in art).

Dude. Do you even read? I don't even know who you are talking to here other than yourself, since no one else has suggested that nudity is bad or that women need to be 'protected' from it. Sex and nudity is simply not the issue, and it is disingenuous at best for you to keep pretending that it is.
 

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