D&D 5E Spiritual Weapon and Sneak Attack

[Hawk Diesel]

I don't think it punishes them. They can still cast spiritual weapon and can upcast it for extra damage as well if they are high enough level.

The cleric can cast cantrips or spells with spiritual weapon but that is a normal spiritual weapon, not a sneak attack spiritual weapon. I don't think it is unbalanced for the rogue-cleric to cast spells or cantrips while using his spiritual weapon, I think it is unbalanced if he does than AND gets to sneak attack as well. The only character that can sneak attack and cast a full on 1-action spell or cantrip the same turn is a fighter-rogue who uses action surge or a sorecer-rogue who uses metamagic and those are both limited per LR/SR.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I mean, as long as you maintain the once per turn limit for sneak attack, what does it matter if the rogue-cleric or cleric-rogue applies it to spiritual weapon or an actual weapon? I don't see much of a difference personally.

 

[NotAYakk]

I know RAW this isn’t viable, but would anything break balance if you could sneak attack with a spiritual weapon? If not why would this break something? I can only see the problem if an Arcane Trickster now could do Two-Weapon Fighting and cast spells since the weapon is a floating so you have a free hand. Maybe if your getting the spell through cleric then shield could also be a problem.

So, sneak attack is 1/turn.

Spirital weapon is a bonus action attack that doesn't require your main action to be anything.

So on your turn you use your bonus action to cast spiritual weapon or make it attack something. It delivers sneak attack damage.

Then you ready an attack to go off on something that is certain to happen shortly after your turn. Say, "when an ally attacks one of the enemies, I will also attack it".

This goes off on someone else's turn ... and you get to use your sneak attack damage dice again. Because it is 1/turn, not 1/round.

Setting up off-turn SA is a pretty obvious and clear rogue optimization that lets the rogue keep up in damage with other optimization techniques, like GWM or SS. This happens to be a really easy one.

 

[auburn2]

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I mean, as long as you maintain the once per turn limit for sneak attack, what does it matter if the rogue-cleric or cleric-rogue applies it to spiritual weapon or an actual weapon? I don't see much of a difference personally.

If he makes a weapon attack as his action it doesn't. If he uses his action to do something else other than an attack, hide, dash or disengage it does. He could take his sneak attack and then follow that with a guiding bolt or ice knife or fireball or some other equally damaging spell. That would be substnaitally better than 2 sneak attacks in terms of damage in a single turn. In any RAW circumstance where a Rogue that lands a sneak attack he has very little else he can do that turn, and nothing which can do more than normal weapon damage. All he can do is take a bonus action or if he landed it with an offhand attack he can make a regular attack without SA.

As a matter of fact using this house rule a Rogue can sneak attack at will because he can turn a normal attack into advantage by using help as his action. A Rogue out there with no ally within 5 feet of the enemy and no advantage can simply use the "help" action as his action to give his his spiritual weapon advantage and get a sneak attack in. Worse if the rogue has disadvantage and there is an ally in 5 feet the rogue can nulify the disadvantage to get his sneak attack. So an enemy purposely takes dodge action or casts something like blur, invisibility or darkness specifically to keep the rogue from sneak attacking and the rogue can nullify it.

If you like it use it, but it is undoubtedly unbalanced compared to RAW.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

If he makes a weapon attack as his action it doesn't. If he uses his action to do something else other than an attack, hide, dash or disengage it does. He could take his sneak attack and then follow that with a guiding bolt or ice knife or fireball or some other equally damaging spell. That would be substnaitally better than 2 sneak attacks in terms of damage in a single turn. In any RAW circumstance where a Rogue that lands a sneak attack he has very little else he can do that turn, and nothing which can do more than normal weapon damage. All he can do is take a bonus action or if he landed it with an offhand attack he can make a regular attack without SA.

As a matter of fact using this house rule a Rogue can sneak attack at will because he can turn a normal attack into advantage by using help as his action. A Rogue out there with no ally within 5 feet of the enemy and no advantage can simply use the "help" action as his action to give his his spiritual weapon advantage and get a sneak attack in. Worse if the rogue has disadvantage and there is an ally in 5 feet the rogue can nulify the disadvantage to get his sneak attack. So an enemy purposely takes dodge action or casts something like blur, invisibility or darkness specifically to keep the rogue from sneak attacking and the rogue can nullify it.

If you like it use it, but it is undoubtedly unbalanced compared to RAW.

You cannot use the Help action to give your Spiritual Weapon advantage.

Help
You can lend your aid to another creature in the completion of a task. When you take the Help action, the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability check it makes to perform the task you are helping with, provided that it makes the check before the start of your next turn.

Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally’s attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage.

Help specifically says you can aid another creature. Spiritual Weapon is not a creature, and because you are using your action and spell attack bonus, at best it counts as you, and you can't use the Help action to give yourself advantage.

Additionally, as I've said before, you are either sacrificing sneak attack damage to get access to these spells, or sacrificing spell slots and access to higher level spells for sneak attack in order to use this gimmick. I don't see the issue, and compared to other builds (as @NotAYakk mentioned ones including Sharpshooter, Great Weapon Master, and Polearm Master combined with Sentinel), it seems in line with what others can achieve with proper investment and build development.

 

[auburn2]

compared to other builds (as @NotAYakk mentioned ones including Sharpshooter, Great Weapon Master, and Polearm Master combined with Sentinel), it seems in line with what others can achieve with proper investment and build development.

Ok so he can't use help. He can use shove and still generate his own advantage or he can position his hammer and himself so his opponent is flanked. The point is he can take an action to get advantage or neutralize disadvantage where another Rogue could not.

As for the feats you mention it absolutely is not in line with them, it is far more powerful. RAW, a Rogue build with GWM or PAM would be weak because none of the applicable weapons can be used with SA. You need some house rule SAs to make this a viable build at all. Sharpshooter has some value for a rogue but using it for a Rogue which relies on SA for damage instead of multiple attacks makes it weaker due to the -5 to hit.

Now with this spiritual hammer SA, you are right these feats do become way OP for a Rogue. A spiritual hammer Rogue can use GWM, PAM. He does not have to rely on finnesse weapons because his hammer is out there getting SA. It also makes sharpshooter for a Rogue a must have and makes the feat in general far more effective than it otherwise is.

First sharpshooter- RAW a rogue can use sharpshooter and SA but to do that he must take a -5 to hit to get the extra damage AND give up his dual wielding bonus attack making it substantially more difficult to land his SA. It is feast or famine, he will do more damage but will lose SA more often. Your Spritual weapon Rogue doesn't need to make this choice. He can attack with his hammer and get his SA damage and then attack with his sharpshooter and try for another +10 without risk. Or alternatively if he misses with spiritual weapon now he can even choose to go normal to get in his SA dice. In DPR this is going to be far better than a standard Rogue employing sharpshooter.

As for GWM and PAM. The Rogue can now wield a greatsword or a polearm, get all the advantages that come with that and still get his SA in with his spiritual weapon. Even if he takes no extra proficiencies he can wield a longsword or staff two-handed and get GWM extra damage.

If you like it do it, but it is absolutely far more powerful than a RAW Rogue.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

If you are using multiclassing and feats, there are lots of things to worry about. In terms of the feats I mentioned, I was not mentioning those for a rogue specifically, but rather in comparison to other builds that would utilize them.

Also, let's be realistic. A cleric dipping 3 levels of rogue is adding 2d6 damage once per turn in exchange for a higher level spell and some spell slots.

A rogue dipping 3 levels of cleric for spiritual weapon is losing out on 2d6 sneak attack. Additionally both are delaying access to an ASI. Not to mention both end up putting themselves at further disadvantage via MAD.

Also, if we ONLY judge these builds on DPR, then it isn't really capturing everything. Each brings with it their own utility in exploration and social phases of the game.

It's a gimmick. Is it powerful? Sure. But either way it also comes with downsides, and won't break the game or totally outshine other characters, especially in the hands of an experienced DM.

 

[Horwath]

Sneak attack is one per turn so I do not have a problem working with any weapon or any "attack roll spell"that deals hitpoint damage.

rogue3/cleric3 build is weaker than rogue6 or cleric6 so it needs any help it can get.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Feat: Sneaky Spells (perquisites: Sneak Attack, can cast at least one spell requiring an attack roll). You may make a sneak attack with a spell that requires an attack roll. You must be within 30' and fulfil all the other requirements for sneak attack.

 

[Horwath]

Feat: Sneaky Spells (perquisites: Sneak Attack, can cast at least one spell requiring an attack roll). You may make a sneak attack with a spell that requires an attack roll. You must be within 30' and fulfil all the other requirements for sneak attack.

add +1 to dex, int, wis or cha.
add one bonus attack cantrip.
And lose 30ft range limit

and then you maybe have a good feat.

 

[Coroc]

I would not allow it. If you want a caster rogue, play an arcane trickster, or a MC. As others wrote above: spiritual weapon is a bonus action, it is already strong and a MC cleric/rogue could profit vastly from the synergy.