Stat requirements

[Infiniti2000]

It is an in-game event, but not an in-game action.

That makes no sense. How can you do something in game, but not have it be an 'action', not even a non-action (e.g. move silently)? If it's not something the character can do, then it's not in game. Since you haven't defined what you consider levelling up to be, however, why don't you define it so we can continue. Be explicit. Otherwise, we're just wasting time.

 

[Storm Raven]

I disagree about the "exactly one reference." You are not being honest about this. Besides the one from the only section you quoted,

You mean "the one and only section" that defines how scrolls are used? That is why the section is headed as "Activation". You want to know how scrolls are used, you go to the section that describes how scrolls are used.

We also have this quote, from the description of scrolls: "The writing vanishes from the scroll when the spell is activated. Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell".

Once again, the decription of what a scroll is, and how it is used does not say "it is casting a spell". It says it is "activated" and it is "like" casting a spell. These are different from "casting a spell".

we have from the definition of spell completion item: "...all the user need do to cast the spell...." It doesn't get much plainer than that.

Nice misquote. The whole quote is this (DMG page 213):

Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scoll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the short, simple, finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character mjust be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake (see Scroll Mishaps . . .). Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does

Oh, wait, it does. In the UMD section which you selectively ignored. There are other places, but even just one instance is sufficient.

Ah, I see. So your argument is that the description is the skill overrides the specific description of how the item is used. An interesting argument. Interesting because it is so silly. If you want to know how a scroll is used, go to the description of scrolls. You know, the primary definition. The primary definition says, over and over again, that scrolls are activated. You just cannot overcome the clear description given there.

 

[Storm Raven]

That makes no sense. How can you do something in game, but not have it be an 'action', not even a non-action (e.g. move silently)?

Moving silently is part of an action: it is part of a move action.

If it's not something the character can do, then it's not in game.

It is something only a character can do. Players don't level up, characters do.

Since you haven't defined what you consider levelling up to be, however, why don't you define it so we can continue. Be explicit. Otherwise, we're just wasting time.

It is an in-game event, but not an in-game action. An action is defined by the amount of time it takes: move action, standard action, free action, swift action and so on. Leveling up is an in-game event (because the character goes from being, say, 8th level to being 9th level in the game), but it takes no action to do so.

 

[KarinsDad]

That makes no sense. How can you do something in game, but not have it be an 'action', not even a non-action (e.g. move silently)? If it's not something the character can do, then it's not in game. Since you haven't defined what you consider levelling up to be, however, why don't you define it so we can continue. Be explicit.

Leveling up in my game occurs while the character is asleep at night. If the sleep gets interrupted, it occurs once the character gets enough rest.

In the case of it getting interrupted and the character getting poisoned, I would rule that the character gains the prestige class as desired (after all, he had been training for it in his spare time), but he then only gets those elements from CW16 until he can get rid of the poison.

This, of course, allows the BBEG to poison PCs right and left, even within normal combat, and they would then lose special abilities of that prestige class (but not skills, spells, saves, BAB, hit points, etc.). Ditto for Energy Drain which might do the same thing (in addition to knocking down what it normally does).

Oh well, sucks to be them.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You mean "the one and only section" that defines how scrolls are used?

There's no one and only anything. Clearly, you are not familiar with how the D&D/d20 rules are presented.

That is why the section is headed as "Activation". You want to know how scrolls are used, you go to the section that describes how scrolls are used.

Besides this showing a lack of understanding in D&D rules, you are ignoring the fact that we are talking about UMD. So, if you want to know how UMD functions, you go to the section on UMD.

Nice misquote. The whole quote is this (DMG page 213):

You're accusing me of misquoting? Next time, read my post. If you can't understand where I quote from, ask, but don't accuse me of anything unless you're damn sure about it. For a supposed attorney, you're awfully quick to libel. You obviously have no clue about where I got that quote. Here's the source. And here's the text:

A magic item (typically a scroll) that contains a partially cast spell. Since the spell preparation step has already been completed, all the user need do to cast the spell is complete the final gestures or words normally required to trigger it. To use a spell completion item safely, the caster must be high enough level in the appropriate class to cast the spell already, though it need not be a known spell. A caster who does not fit this criterion has a chance of spell failure. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity just as casting a spell does.

Moving silently is part of an action: it is part of a move action.

Yes, but more specifically it's a non-action. The same thing you claim levelling up to be.

It is something only a character can do. Players don't level up, characters do.

Not true. Players "level up" the character.

 

[IcyCool]

Okay. Now explain how in those two examples those things are used. In one case, the wizard sleeps (in game), wakes up (hopefully in game ), and prepares his spells (in game). All of these have clear rules on how long it takes and what is expected of the wizard character. In the other case, what? The wizard character (not player) does what exactly to gain the feat? Can he put on the headband and mutter a prayer to Boccob to raise his level?

Sure, why not? What does the fluff matter? I'm talking about how the rules read (at least to me). Nothing in there tells me that items don't allow you to qualify for feats and prestige classes (if you've found a part that does, then please quote it).

Do you understand the difference?

I am aware that you feel that items don't allow a player to qualify for a feat. I think I am reasonably aware of why you think that.

I just don't agree. I think that your reasons are very subjective (you feel that allowing items to qualify for feats and PrC causes more problems than it is worth). There isn't anything wrong with that, mind you, but it makes debating the point pretty much useless.

You are playing the game in a manner that is fun for you. That means you are playing it right.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I just don't agree. I think that your reasons are very subjective (you feel that allowing items to qualify for feats and PrC causes more problems than it is worth). There isn't anything wrong with that, mind you, but it makes debating the point pretty much useless.

I don't think it's useless, but it's certainly useless to try to debate the RAW. I thought I was clear in stating there are no rules one way or another and our choices are equally supportable. I also thought it was clear that the debate turned to one of preference, not rules, though using rules as guidance (for balance, etc.) is certainly appropriate. In that vein, if you wish to continue the discussion, I'd be happy to do so. I have proven many times that I am open to new interpretations.

 

[Storm Raven]

Besides this showing a lack of understanding in D&D rules, you are ignoring the fact that we are talking about UMD. So, if you want to know how UMD functions, you go to the section on UMD.

The UMD description cannot override the description of how scrolls are used, no matter how much you want it to. You want to know how scrolls are used, this is detailed in the DMG, on pages 237-238. Anything else is superfluous.

You're accusing me of misquoting? Next time, read my post. If you can't understand where I quote from, ask, but don't accuse me of anything unless you're damn sure about it. For a supposed attorney, you're awfully quick to libel. You obviously have no clue about where I got that quote. Here's the source. And here's the text:

The on-line glossary cannot contradict the rules in the DMG. To the extent that it does, it is incorrect. The description for the use of spell completion items is given in the DMG at page 217. Anything that contradicts that is wrong.

Yes, but more specifically it's a non-action. The same thing you claim levelling up to be.

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No, it is part of an action. Try to move silently without moving.

Not true. Players "level up" the character.

No, a character levels. Only the character levels. The player may direct the process, but that is true for just about everything else that a character does. As I said before, it is an in-game event, but not an action.

 

[Dimwhit]

I'm having an INA flashback...

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, the luck domain ability is not an action, though it's obviously an in game "action" that the character takes. The rules on adjudicating it are clear.

Given that:

a/ the decision on whether or not to reroll is made before the result of the roll is known, and
b/ characters cannot see die rolls, only the results of die rolls...

... how can the character elect to use his ability? He has no knowledge of what number is showing on the die.

-Hyp.