Stat requirements

[glass]

Interesting. Would you also argue that a 1st level wizard who places 4 ranks in Spellcraft and takes the feat "Skill Focus: Spellcraft" now has 7 ranks? Or does he have 4 ranks with a +3 bonus?

Obviously not. His ranks are his ranks, irrespective what other bonuses apply. There is no analagous 'strength ranks' quality- your strength is your strength.


glass.

 

[KarinsDad]

My favorite example, though, is incite rage. This requires a barbarian to get to a charisma of 25. I'll spare you all the details of the world's wussiest barbarian, who had to spend all of his level up increases on boosting his charisma...

The simplest "fix" for these issues is allowing essentially permanent item bonuses to meet requirements - of course, my contention is that this is RAW, not a fix.

It's only a fix if you think that it's broken and that every character should be able to acquire any of the feats and they should be able to do this by spending money.

If, on the other hand, you think that Epic feats are HUGE feats that should only be acquired with the most careful of preparation and sacrificing of other abilities, then it's not broken as written. It's eventually attainable if that is your goal and you are willing to sacrifice other things to get there.


We live in a society today that many people think that they are entitled. They equate that to their characters and think that any cool combo they can think of, the DM should allow.

I disagree. Epic feats should be Epic. They should not be purchased if you throw enough money and XP at them like lower level abilities.

 

[Parlan]

Those feats that require 25s are often not reasonably obtainable at what would appear to be their intended level under a point buy system. For the most part, only the feats which focus on the primary stat of a character class that would buy it are normally obtainable.

(snipped cool explanation)

The simplest "fix" for these issues is allowing essentially permanent item bonuses to meet requirements - of course, my contention is that this is RAW, not a fix.

Wow! Very thoughtful explanation IanB! I'd pretty much made up my own mind on the issue, but your explanation clinched it. If the designers were thinking that way for epic feats, they prolly were for lower level ones as well. It's articulate posts like this that make me enjoy Enworld so much.

 

[IanB]

It's only a fix if you think that it's broken and that every character should be able to acquire any of the feats and they should be able to do this by spending money.

If, on the other hand, you think that Epic feats are HUGE feats that should only be acquired with the most careful of preparation and sacrificing of other abilities, then it's not broken as written. It's eventually attainable if that is your goal and you are willing to sacrifice other things to get there.


We live in a society today that many people think that they are entitled. They equate that to their characters and think that any cool combo they can think of, the DM should allow.

I disagree. Epic feats should be Epic. They should not be purchased if you throw enough money and XP at them like lower level abilities.

There's a difference between "you are willing to sacrifice other things to get there" and "you have to plan everything to work exactly from level 1 and make a ton of sub-par choices or when your game hits level 27 you'll be out of luck." That isn't character sacrifice, that's just an unnecessarily punitive ruling.

I don't believe the game suddenly changes into a new game at level 21. It is still D&D. It should scale normally. As written, it only scales normally if you allow item bonuses to fit prerequisites, IMO.

Money and time are limited resources just as feat slots, stat points, and skill ranks are, after all. The only real difference between them as character building tools are associations we bring with them from RL I think.

 

[Parlan]

If, on the other hand, you think that Epic feats are HUGE feats that should only be acquired with the most careful of preparation and sacrificing of other abilities, then it's not broken as written. It's eventually attainable if that is your goal and you are willing to sacrifice other things to get there.


We live in a society today that many people think that they are entitled. They equate that to their characters and think that any cool combo they can think of, the DM should allow.

I disagree. Epic feats should be Epic. They should not be purchased if you throw enough money and XP at them like lower level abilities.

I agree that epic feats should be special, but a Barbarian getting a Cha of 25 w/o items? I just can't comprehend that.

It would require such overspecialization that the concept is unworkable. To prioritize Cha he'd have to sacrifice his other stats (str adn con) so much that the PC wouldn't survive to epic levels.


[facetious outrage] heck, I'd gank him at level 1 if he showed up with a high-cha, low str & con Barb. WTF?! How can he tank for my rogue then?!?!? And then I'd smack him with a rolled up newspaper and say "WrongBadFun, WrongBadFun!!" and rub his nose in his character sheet until he saw the error of his ways.[/facetious outrage]*


Allowing magic items to qualify would still require the Barb to devote a lot of resources to qualifying for the feat, but at least reaching the perreqs would be somewhat feasible.


*seriously, i would never do this. And there's no such thing as WrongBadFun...

...but it's a funny image innit?

 

[Dimwhit]

It's only a fix if you think that it's broken and that every character should be able to acquire any of the feats and they should be able to do this by spending money.

If, on the other hand, you think that Epic feats are HUGE feats that should only be acquired with the most careful of preparation and sacrificing of other abilities, then it's not broken as written.

I don't know about anyone else, but I see Epic feats as feats that should only be acquired by characters of Epic level. It shouldn't be any more difficult for an Epic character to obtain an Epic feat than it is for a non-epic character to obtain a non-epic feat.

 

[KarinsDad]

There's a difference between "you are willing to sacrifice other things to get there" and "you have to plan everything to work exactly from level 1 and make a ton of sub-par choices or when your game hits level 27 you'll be out of luck." That isn't character sacrifice, that's just an unnecessarily punitive ruling.

I don't believe the game suddenly changes into a new game at level 21. It is still D&D. It should scale normally. As written, it only scales normally if you allow item bonuses to fit prerequisites, IMO.

Money and time are limited resources just as feat slots, stat points, and skill ranks are, after all. The only real difference between them as character building tools are associations we bring with them from RL I think.

Then how do you explain the DC 100+ skills in the Epic Handbook?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Then how do you explain the DC 100+ skills in the Epic Handbook?

Epic Skill-Bonus Items.

 

[IanB]

Then how do you explain the DC 100+ skills in the Epic Handbook?

How to walk on water or another surface that can't support your weight (DC 90)

Be a level 29 rogue. Max ranks in balance would be 32 ranks.

Start with a dex of 18 (because you're a halfling or elf in 28 point buy who spent 10 on dex to start with a base 16.) Add 5 of your 7 level up increases to dex, get an inherent bonus of +5, and some epic gloves of dexterity +12. Your dex is now 40. If you're not a halfling or elf, or you're a halfling or elf who saved some points by starting with a 14, you have to spend all 7 on raising dex instead. Either that, or wait a couple more levels to get a couple more ranks.

Get some boots of swiftness, which give a +20 competence bonus on balance checks.

Take skill focus (balance) and epic skill focus (balance.)

Your total balance check is now:

+32 (ranks) + 20 (competence bonus) + 13 (feats) + 15 (dex) = +80

You can now take 10 and walk on water whenever you feel like it.

It cost an epic feat and a regular feat, plus a whole lot of cash (and the decision that balancing was important to you.) 5 out of 7 increases to dex should not be considered unusual for a rogue.

I suspect there are easier ways to get to this point via prestige classes or whatever than what I've posited; I was only considering what I found in the SRD that applied.

EDIT: You can do this at level 27, actually - I forgot about the +2 synergy bonus you can get from Tumble.

 

[KarinsDad]

Epic Skill-Bonus Items.

The highest bonus items I've seen in the book are +30. Could you tell us where to find the +70 ones which allow DC 100 checks to be successful?