stonegod's Expedition to Castle Ravenloft: Ch. II [OOC]

[DEFCON 1]

Speaking personally... I'm just not crazy about the direction James is taking his character, that's all. For most of the game's run, there was always sniping and conflict between Janis and Jarrith, which was fine. It got to be a bit much at times, as I'm sure James could get just as annoyed with what I would post as Jarrith as I would with him... but we were able to "live and let live".

The problem I have now is that Janis is on a slippery slope to NPCdom, James know out-of-game that she is on a slippery slope to NPCdom, and James continues to play her almost as if he fully intends her to slip into NPCdom. It's no longer Janis vs Jarrith with everyone else playing mediator and being able to laugh it off, it's Janis vs the party entirely. It seems as though there's not a single thing any character can do or say that Janis won't turn about into some slight against her. The way James is writing her... we can never win with her. We will always be an annoying burden, and dealing with her will always be a chore.

And honestly... I just don't want to roleplay that anymore. It's tiresome. I was kind of hoping that over the past year we'd start coming together as a group as the characters spent more time with each other, came to more of an understanding, learned to live and laugh with each other's foibles... but if anything, the party is now even more split than they were at the beginning. I'm not blameless in this regard, as whenver James would post a snipe, I'd turn around and return the volley. But I'm just tired of it all don't want to play it that way anymore since it's obvious there's never going to be a resolution. There's no "Top Gun Maverick/Iceman finally settling their differences" event happening. It'll only end when one of the characters kills the others.

So it's not simply a matter of removing the taint mechanic from the game... it all comes down to how James chooses to roleplay his character. If he wants to stay his course because he finds exploring her descent into madness to be an interesting roleplay challenge... that's fine. I have no problem with that... I'll just play another character that is okay with her the way she is. Quite frankly I'd find it refreshing to play a character on the same side as Janis for once (assuming of course he doesn't have her turn against the new character as well).

The other option is to assume that Janis becoming an NPC is a fait accompli, because we all know that because Janis refuses to have a Remove Curse spell cast on her, eventually Janis WILL fail a control roll and become a werewolf NPC. It'll happen sooner or later. And at that point it'll be James' choice whether to create and play a new character. And if that's the case, I just want to jump to that point... because I just don't want to roleplay against the character anymore.

Anyway, that's my stance at this point in time.

 

[James Heard]

Marot's been riding Janis pestering her, meddling in her decisions, accusing her of doing unestablished ills to the party for a whole day now. In fact, everyone's been doing just that, in spite of seemingly everyone BUT Janis actually succumbing to the curse and attacking other people. And Janis accepted an unsuccessful attempt already, and might be more amenable to adjustments in her goals if other people hadn't made an effort to get her back up about the whole thing.

Then there's the whole issue with Mateausz and Taint. Marot's already threatened to harm Janis, the night before. No one's backing Janis up on anything, has never backed Janis up on anything (she pretty much had to bull-head her way into giving the villagers back their dead to bury and morn over after the Witches even, which Janis saw as simply normal behavior for the "good" person she's trying to becomes) - why shouldn't she treat everyone else as being of somewhat questionable character? Janis has been attempting to make a pretty difficult transition from being of neutral of morals (and evil of methodology and association) to "get back to her roots" and engaging other people more. She hasn't been particularly engaging with the rest of the party, true. But that's a lot to do with Janis treating them as if they can attend to themselves. They don't need a champion, and Janis isn't going to allow herself to appear weak when internally she's needing every ounce of self-control to be strong and resist her baser urges.

Then, in the castle, comes busybody Marot. Marot, a barbarian of weird magical abilities telling her what to do, even though he doesn't know anything about what's going on inside her. Marot, who threatened her. Marot, who even though he threatened her is slick enough that his lack of charm goes unnoticed?

Bear in mind that the Flame teaches all of its members how to deal with those afflicted by the lycanthropic curse. Only two options exist -- remove the taint, or kill the beast.

Yes, she's genuinely angry with Marot. "Do as I nag, or I'll get my friends (my friends, not yours) to kill you" isn't exactly a winning argument with the Cyran noblewoman. It's both frightening and pathetic to Janis, because it might be true and because of all people in her life her companions should know her enough to trust her. That there's no more trust without Daellin and Selase except between those of the same faith seems sad and terrifying if it's true. And that's the argument that Marot's put forward, and Ashlyn did pretty much tell Janis to "clean up around here, while we holy people (good, correctly behaving people) get to our important business here with this church." She's even questioned whether or not she's good herself:

"Secrets are where dark hearts cower and blacken."

Frowning, Janis strides forward and holds her hand over the altar as if testing it for warmth.

"I wonder if my heart is truly black?"

Janis places her hand upon the altar.

That she didn't scream in pain or vanish in a puff of smoke is the sort of surety she seeks in herself and wishes she could proclaim to others, but it's clear that some element of her will always be suspect to the rest of the party no matter what she does to prove herself. And they're willing to kill her for it.

As far as Jarrith and Khensu goes, I really haven't promoted anymore lack of charm or disagreement than usual for Janis I think, until the Taint started to have an effect. That's what Janis was saying to Marot though:

I'm just sniping and grousing at the feral and the others, but if that cretin says one more word I'm going to find a way to feed him to the vermin that infest this place.

Yes, it's internalized. Marot's well and truly getting on her nerves. And her nerves are pretty rattled. She's got a freaky Lycan Curse she's riding, she's here at the behest of a sponsor who is obviously an agent of or in collusion with agents of the Cyran government, her fantasies of staying in Barovia after the fighting are shattered because she can't know if Mateusz has already identified her to assassins, her closest friend among her companions has already died, her longest association among her companions has died, the rest of her companions want to kill her, in last night's fight she lost her Storm Bolt.

She has a plan, but she doesn't trust anyone who's left to confide the plan. Jarrith is too hot-headed, Marot wants to kill her, Ashlyn is a Cyran of unknown origin and allegiances, Tessa is too kind, Khensu too submissive... And to cap it off, there's the whole money issue. Janis needs her share of funds to make sure her plan for exiting Barovia can come about, but while the rest of the group has distributed goods between themselves and even outsiders only the barest minimum of context of "getting Janis her share of the proceeds" has been discussed. In fact, she'd rather not involve the party at all, which is yet another thing twisting inside the woman.

Oh, and I've never met a woman yet that didn't get twice as angry at someone for a "time of the month" quip than she was originally. Maybe I'm wrong, but I consider myself irl pretty good at ticking off women. Something of a specialty of mine, you might even say.

Anyways, a lot of Janis bitching and complaining is just that. Janis is self-absorbed, even in her consideration of other people. I don't see how she's a "lone wolf" when she's been with the party steadily throughout the whole game except for when she had "druid stuff" to attend to or was doing something with the villagers. If Janis is being more pointed and snarling right now it's because I'm writing her as angry with Marot and scared, and everyone else getting some of that is mostly collateral damage

 

[s@squ@tch]

After seeing what happened when Jarrith changed into a werewolf, Marot has simply no idea why Janis is refusing all help.

Putting others in jeopardy to be possibly killed is definitely against Marot's values and he simply cannot sit on his hands while someone toys with a lycanthropic curse - something that the Silver Flame is very sensitive to.

That, coupled with the evil voices in his head (which aren't the ones he always hears due to his "Otherworldly Whispers" feat) have given him more of a black and white view of Janis.

So Marot basically knows that Janis has been drained by the vampire's attack AND is sitting on a werewolf curse --- both of which the party could take care of, but she insists on doing nothing about either.

So, naturally, his normally chaotic good self is exhibiting some chaotic neutral tendencies and is growing tired of the constant bitching coming from the woman.

Add to the fire that Janis has somewhat alienated herself within the party by her constant bitching and Marot is starting to wonder what exactly do we need her around for -- since she could turn on us at any minute and kill someone.

Bottom line, Marot wants Janis to rid herself of the lycan taint -- they have enough problems with a powerful vampire on their hands without worrying about a were-druid.

 

[DEFCON 1]

James, I am in no way saying what you are doing is wrong... your portrayal of Janis has been steadfast throughout and I've never once thought you've done anything "out-of-character". And I admire greatly the path you are trying to take with your roleplaying, and wish that more writers on these boards would take that kind of interest in what they are writing. The only problem is... I see myself as that same kind of writer and thus the chasm that keeps getting wider and wider between our characters is becoming too great for me to continue having fun with it. And that's my problem... not anyone elses.

Which is why I'm in no way shape for form making this a "he goes or I go!" kind of thing. Quite the contrary, actually... right now I'd actually prefer to play someone who's on Janis' side. I agree that of the Thaolist Six, you've been on the short end of the stick because we lost Daellin and Selase, and Marot and Khensu have been able to stay active for the most part. So it seems very much like a 3-on-1 (although I've always tried to have Khensu reach out his hand to Janis even if she never really took it).

But as it's been made pretty clear that you don't want Janis to "give in" and accept the cleansing of the lycan's curse (and by extension any vampiric damage since she freaked out when aid was offered)... and stonegod made it clear that if she succumbs to the curse at some point she immediately turns Chaotic Evil and becomes an NPC... what do we have left? Our two paladins really should not have anything to do with her because she is voluntarily stepping towards the darkness, and Marot and Jarrith are devout in their convictions such that they are trulying and honestly fighting against any influence the land and taint might have on them. And they see quite clearly that Janis is not.

And unless Janis was to have some epiphany and suddenly realize that she can accomplish her goals even while fighting against the darkness rather than embracing it... there's no connection to the group left because at this point I can't see how any of the Lawful Good characters (and by extension, the devout Marot) could willingly stay in her company... not after she pretty much threatened Marot's life. Jarrith and Khensu most certainly cannot. Stormwind and pathfinder will have to determine for themselves how Ashlyn and Tess would react.

So it comes down to this... either Jarrith and Khensu leave the party and I move on to play a character who doesn't mind or care if Janis keeps the curse within her... or Janis has said epiphany and extends that one olive branch to the group by voluntarily trying to cleanse herself. The party's already extended theirs to her... they kept her around even when she refused cleansing originally, when in all honestly they probably would have kicked her to the curb... so at some point they have to feel as though they are getting something back.

Janis has every right to feel absolutely justified in her feelings... just like all of the rest of the characters are absolutely justified in theirs. And if that means that the characters cannot adventure anymore because of it... so be it. We'll need to work something out.

 

[stonegod]

Just an clarification: If Janis *purposefully* changes into the wolf, she's an NPC. If she fails the save (which is likely; she'll run out of AP eventually), she's still in control when not the wolf. In either case, a remove curse or break enchantment will work (assuming its a full moon out and the save succeeds).

 

[James Heard]

That's just it though - Janis already accepted a chance to remove the curse. Tessa blew it. (Post 1655, IC I) That's not a condemnation, just a clarification. Now Janis has another idea of how to handle the curse and take care of several birds with one stone. One that doesn't rely on the questionable motives (and unfortunately, regretably, abilities) of her companions. Honestly, if they're only deferring "kicking her to the curb" because Tessa failed her roll to remove the curse... I know the other character's motivations revolve more on "slaying evil" and all that, but they push into "if you're a threat to me or disagree with me, I'll slay you" with Janis more than even Janis does (until the Taint showed up).

Marot's often been sort of a jerk to Janis though, with weird baseless assumptions like parading corpses like trophies through the village, and he's the one that actually succumbed to being subverted by the forces of evil. Now he makes a threat to kill her one night and she's grievously harmed by trying to avoid him, and he continues to make an issue of it. Then she retorts back in kind, and the holy rollers ignore his threat earlier to make an issue of hers. It's like she's thinking "Holy crap! I do everything right, I'm nicer to the people of the village than anyone else here is. Despite constant threat of mental abuse I've maintained my calm and sense of self. Someone threatens to kill me though, and I'm the bad guy for getting upset about it."

And the problem with epiphanies in this case is that while Janis might have managed one on her own devices, now she's going to have to stop being angry at Marot enough to not consider the Curse as an option to defend herself from Marot. Marot's dangerously unsettled and weak of mind after all, besides being a barbarian with no more manners than it requires to ingratiate himself within the party.

A lot of what I'm personally seeing as being at issue here is that people are getting tired, after months of actual time, of a situation which is only a few days old in the game. What's been years of game play has been ...weeks maybe? of game time. I've been trying to manage that and not change too quickly even though I've been presupposing a bit of change in Janis to begin with (she was traveling with everyone else, after all).

Janis isn't "voluntarily stepping toward darkness," she's recovering from a long stay in it. Daellin was a bit of comfort from her past, even if he didn't remember her. Selase's take on her bizarre religion showed that even the seemingly darkest ideologies could be rationalized into more...socially pleasant formats. A lot of the Flame people though? Judge, judge, fall from grace, and judge. She's always been lying to everyone, and the people left are the people she's least comfortable opening up to. That's why she's rebuffed attempts from the rest of the party to open up, she's not about to aid any of the inquisitors to rush to their sometimes hasty judgments and slide the dagger in.

Sometimes it feels like Janis has just popped off her Vader mask and started her speech about everyone being lovely, and then Luke dies, and Han shows up and he doesn't want to hear about it - he'd rather cap the old guy because when is going to get a better chance? So she puts the mask back on, and dusts off the force lightning, because she WANTS to be good but she doesn't know if she wants to be punked out for trying to be good. "I NEED my evil toolbox, because without these guys will eat me alive for trying to build a good guy toolbox!"

Janis could blow over her anger at Marot very quickly though. She's even started warming up to Ireena a little since she started getting her hands dirty with cleaning up the valley.

I'd actually prefer to play someone who's on Janis' side.

At this exact moment, I'll readily admit that "Janis' side" is pretty muddled thanks to Marot and the support of Marot by the rest of the party and the Taint. He's not quite in Mateusz's category of "Old Janis would kill him/New Janis still wants to kill him," but the general lack of trust eating away at her confidence at her new way of thinking (and, again, the Taint) are making slips of the tongue from Old Janis show up more, and New Janis doesn't exactly have a lot of experience on "how to deal with threats of murder from you close associates" while I imagine it's pretty common in the religious realms where you support a scouring of the world with darkness and eternal cold to make way for a new spring.

If Janis could just get to 9th level (without the neg levels becoming permanent!) I've been planning for her to take Leadership to hopefully knock out a cheerleader/conscience/confidant cohort. Someone that I could occasionally mouthpiece to explain her to other characters, since conversations like this are all well and good but when it comes to actually writing out the dialogue it's all OOC.

To be fair, I imagine "Mistress is a Great Lady, she's just misunderstood!" speeches could get old pretty quickly, no matter how much fun they might be to write.



I don't want anyone to drop out. Like I've said, I've become resigned that there's a distinct possibility that Janis might slip at some point and go NPC or just get beat down by the rest of the party for their "LG" kicks; but I've always planned on seeing it all the way through (and then writing up an overly amorous overweight cleric with a walrus moustache and a bald spot, with designs on making sweet muffins with Ireena or something).

 

[Stormwind]

Firstly although Ashlyn doesn't consider Janis a close friend, she does consider her a trusted companion, and although events of late have thrown a bit of a cloud on that, Ashlyn still considers her as such (the whole enemy of my enemy thing - Ashlyn's willing to befriend anyone who will help her fight undead). As far as the lycan curse goes, Ashlyn is strongly against Janis's decision not to have it removed but she has said her piece on that and she doesn't believe it needs repeating.
On the other hand, Ashlyn also considers Jarrith and Khensu trusted companions which puts current events in an awkward position for Ashlyn as she really wouldn't want to take sides.

As far as the party split goes, I'm still trying to figure out Ashlyn's reaction to all that ...

@James: regarding Ashlyn's allegiances, I've tried to convey it as clear as I can, but just in case I've failed to convey it clearly, I'll state it now: Although Ashlyn is of Cyran descent, her allegiances are towards the lightbringers. She cares nothing for petty and irrelevant Cyran politics (to her they are irrelevant), she is interested in destroying undead ... that's it. She's very straightforward in her allegiances to be honest.

Since Ashlyn has begun to understand the taint that is manifesting on Marot, Jarrith, and Janis is supernatural in origin, she will be actively looking for ways to combat or prevent the taint.

Regarding the whole money issue, I've been somewhat concerned with the money issue regarding making sure that everyone 'gets their fair share' (Janis isn't the only one I've been concerned about). Particularly since Ashlyn has gotten so much stuff useful to her (armour, shield, sunblade, etc ...).


Edit: Regarding Marot's threat .. I don't know if I just read it differently than everyone else or what, but I understood it as Marot making a statement that if Janis lost control and became a werewolf, then he would attack the creature. Whilst this isn't even close to being good in Ashlyn's book (good would be trying to remove the curse in such a situation and attacking only as a last resort - very much like what Ashlyn tried with Jarrith), I didn't see it as a threat against Janis, merely as a threat against the creature she might become. Hence Ashlyn hasn't spoken out at this stage.

 

[James Heard]

Oh, I know enough to not care OOC about Ashlyn's allegiances, but Janis doesn't have an OOC. I hope I've been clear that sometimes when I fuss up "What Janis would think" it's very unlike what I'd come up with in a perfectly rational, clearly explained universe. I know Janis is a foul-tempered, ill-socialized witch sometimes, and I think that Janis would agree (privately, if she had anyone to discuss such things with privately). The Janis lens that sees the world isn't the real world most of the time, and that is why I find so much amusement in the character. It's like "here's the real situation and how I should react to it, but Janis is going to filter it as something to do with Janis, the worse the better, and here's how she's going to swing."

Anyways, if it weren't for Mateusz cueing Janis' paranoia about Cyran agents she might not pay it much attention in any case, but he did. I mean, we're talking about Janis. She thinks it's suspicious that Ashlyn seems so open. Besides, unconcerned with Cyran politics? Inconceivable!

 

[s@squ@tch]

Marot's threat is as Stormwind described -- but Janis is free to interpret it however should would like.

I may have missed where Janis has described her new plan to rid herself of the lycan curse.

Now he makes a threat to kill her one night and she's grievously harmed by trying to avoid him, and he continues to make an issue of it.

You, sir, have writing the female persona down to a "T" -- blaming Marot for being bitten by a vampire!

Either way, Marot cannot come to grips with someone who doesn't want to help themselves. He sees Janis as someone who is spiraling down into a pit of despair and only wants to blame others for her woes. Ultimately, whether through battle (any hit dealing more than 10 damage now will require a control shape check) or through a lunar event, she will succumb to the curse and turn on the party and harm and kill innocents -- something which a believer in the Flame cannot stand idly by and watch. She's a ticking timebomb, and someone will likely die when she changes.

As a player, I cannot reconcile Marot's knowledge of lycanthropes AND witnessing the awesome power of were-Jarrith with him just shrugging it off. Being a seasoned adventurer (8th level is fairly high in power for Eberron) he has 'been around the block' enough to have red flags raising left and right that his (and/or another party member's) continued existance could be jeopardized by an 'ally'.

So at this point, to play Marot true, he would throw in with Jarrith and Khensu.

 

[James Heard]

I may have missed where Janis has described her new plan to rid herself of the lycan curse.

Janis hasn't described it. Who should she trust in the crew of people who are all deserting her in the middle of a dangerous castle full of vampires? The ones that have been lining up to deliver death threats since she talked with Mateusz? Besides, there really hasn't been a lot of time and privacy traveling with Ireena and inside a strange castle. She spent the night drinking away the bile with only the barkeeper and Urik to keep her company, then they went to the castle and announced she hadn't decided if she cared for treatment just yet...and everyone's spent the last two days with the only conversation with Janis being a fairly nonstop "you're doing it wrong/you're going to kill us all/I think you want to kill us all/I plan on killing you for the trouble you're causing me" etc. tirade. It's more or less solidified Janis' resolve even, because it's made it very clear to Janis that everyone's simply been looking for a rationalization for drawing a blade on her. That whatever loyalty Janis expressed to the group in the past was never reciprocated, especially by the "thralls of Thrane." Janis will probably feel very sad about that once she's past being completely annoyed.

You, sir, have writing the female persona down to a "T" -- blaming Marot for being bitten by a vampire!

I hope I have, since I'm writing a female persona.

Either way, Marot cannot come to grips with someone who doesn't want to help themselves.

The whole issue is that Marot won't accept that Janis is capable of helping herself. Marot can't come to grips with someone who doesn't want Marot to help them. That's Marot who threatened to kill her? The guy who got starry-eyed in the inn and everyone had to subdue? The weird guy from the place where the demon-worshiping savages are? Marot employed by Mateusz?

He sees Janis as someone who is spiraling down into a pit of despair and only wants to blame others for her woes.

I don't think you've been reading the same thread I have. Janis has had some fairly recent moments of dark thoughts, because the castle isn't a pleasant place, but as recently as just before the journey she was in a pretty good mood. The villagers, remember? Before she had words with Mateusz. Less than two days ago, if I've got the count correct. If she's been "spiraling" it's been a pretty short one with a definite, observed cause that everyone's ignored as an opportunity to cash in on Janis' bad mood to kick her again.

If anyone's been spiraling it's everyone else. Lost paladinhood, Taint, uncharacteristic depressions at odds with the character's histories? Janis has been moving toward a cheerier, happier Janis, until a few days ago after talking with Mateusz and now again after being bitten by a vampire. Khensu and Marot can get a wild hair up their behinds and spend several days hanging out near the Castle with no one declaring their mood as "fallen down into a bottomless pit of anti-social behavior" that everyone requires a "mood intervention" hoodoo about. Again, it's the whole double-standard of behavior. The core of Marot's complaint seems to be "Janis isn't a team player!" but Janis has never deserted or failed the party. Marot has. Khensu has. Jarrith has. And now, they're doing it again. I'm sensing some projection here.

Ultimately, whether through battle (any hit dealing more than 10 damage now will require a control shape check) or through a lunar event, she will succumb to the curse and turn on the party and harm and kill innocents -- something which a believer in the Flame cannot stand idly by and watch. She's a ticking timebomb, and someone will likely die when she changes.

Marot thinks in terms of hit points and control shape checks? Is it Marot who's trying to tell Janis what to do, or is it S@squ@tch?

As a player, I cannot reconcile Marot's knowledge of lycanthropes AND witnessing the awesome power of were-Jarrith with him just shrugging it off. Being a seasoned adventurer (8th level is fairly high in power for Eberron) he has 'been around the block' enough to have red flags raising left and right that his (and/or another party member's) continued existance could be jeopardized by an 'ally'.

Somewhere around two or three days of red flags versus years (or at least months, I don't think we nailed it down that far in the vignettes) of "going around the block" with Janis as an ally, even though Marot was always sort of a jerk to Janis (Duck, dodge, roll! Get on the other side, don't hit Feral! Make them think Janis is the one they need to take out, then come in from an unexpected quarter. Watch his movement, he's devilshly quick... - from the Thaliost Station vignette) and to Janis' friends (Marot didn't trust Selase either)? Seriously though, no one's really asked Janis what's wrong in a place where she'd trust herself to answer. Everyone's been running over each other too busy telling her what her problem is to pay attention for that.


Whoa...maybe I am writing Janis deep in the XX's. Janis is doing the thing where she's becoming more unhappy because no one cares that she's unhappy, and the people who think they're showing they care are making her unhappy because they're not listening they're trying to fix the problem which only proves they don't care about her. Wow, it could be my mother.