"Sudden" metamagic feats...am I missing something?

[Infiniti2000]

I was taking a look at the "sudden" metamagic feats in Complete Arcane, and they seemed kind of overpowered, unless I'm missing a restriction (other than only once/day).

The reason they seem overpowered is because they provide two benefits, one of which breaks the normal limits on spell power. The one benefit is that suddenness. The other one is the unlimited spell power (no limit on spell level, whether it's above 9th or above your personal caster limit).

For example, sudden maximize only requires one other metamagic feat as a prereq, so a 3th-level wizard could presumably maximize a scorching ray with this feat, whereas a wizard would normally have to be 9th-level to prepare an empowered scorching ray.

You must have a typo here, but yes the idea is that the result is above his capability.

Further, can these stack? E.g. could a 3rd-level human wizard with a metamagic feat, sudden empower and sudden maximize let loose a scorching ray for 36 points of fire damage?

As noted above, it would be 24+2d6, but close enough for government work. And, yes, that could happen. Sudden metamagic is normally reserved for the BBEG and the only way to curtail it is to 'trick' the PCs into thinking someone else is the BBEG (for the day). That really sucks, though, so don't do it. Either accept the fact that yor BBEG will/may go down easy or don't allow suddenness.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Anyway, Sudden Metamagic feats are NOT overpowered. In fact, in my opinion, they're UNDER powered. True, you can use an empowered/maximized/whatever at an earlier level than you normally could, but it's ONCE per day, for an entire FEAT.

I don't agree. While I'm not sure I would really call them overpowered, I do think their effect is undesirable. This is a similar issue as divine metamagic if you throw out the concept of sudden persistence (and yet I've seen that suggested). I don't like the idea of breaking the spell power limit as its effects are hard to calculate. Use sudden maximize against the goblins - no problem. Always against the BBEG du jour - problem, especially if you're smart about it and use it effectively.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Anyway, Sudden Metamagic feats are NOT overpowered. In fact, in my opinion, they're UNDER powered. True, you can use an empowered/maximized/whatever at an earlier level than you normally could, but it's ONCE per day, for an entire FEAT.

What if they couldn't break the limit but could be used three times per day? I think that would be much more responsible.

 

[notjer]

I've thinking about to take sudden metamagic with my wizard/incantatrix which will result in 2-3 uses per day. Would it work good with instant metamagic and improved metamagic or am I missing a seriously flaw faul with my idea?

 

[Quartz]

No, they specifically don't increase the casting time or spell level.

Anyway, Sudden Metamagic feats are NOT overpowered. In fact, in my opinion, they're UNDER powered. True, you can use an empowered/maximized/whatever at an earlier level than you normally could, but it's ONCE per day, for an entire FEAT.

Which you can apply to any spell. On the fly. And it allows you to exceed your normal spell limits. A Sudden Maximised Disintegrate (240 HP!) or Meteor Swarm (144 HP + 48 HP), anyone? How about applying it to a memorised Empowered Disintegrate? Sudden Maximize on your Time Stop could be very useful.

Seems to me about right, though I think I'd mandate the normal metamagic feat as a prerequisite.

 

[Christian]

What if they couldn't break the limit but could be used three times per day? I think that would be much more responsible.

That's an alternate rule for the standard metamagic feats published in Unearthed Arcana. We've been using it in the campaign I play in, and I haven't seen any balance issues ...

 

[kjenks]

No, they specifically don't increase the casting time or spell level.

That depends on which version of the Sudden feats you use in your campaign.

The original Sudden feats from Miniatures Handbook had a rule that they don't increase the casting time for spontaneous casters.

The most recently published Sudden feats from Complete Arcane do not have that rule -- so they're not so sudden any more for spontaneous casters.

 

[Maldor]

That depends on which version of the Sudden feats you use in your campaign.

The original Sudden feats from Miniatures Handbook had a rule that they don't increase the casting time for spontaneous casters.

The most recently published Sudden feats from Complete Arcane do not have that rule -- so they're not so sudden any more for spontaneous casters.

this is level of thought is awe inspiring i mean this is like saying well the FR book doesn't say that is has gravity so it must not

any fool can see the intent of the feat and to warp the intent to such a silly degee is just make the feat pointless if your going to do this you might as well just cut them out of the book

 

[Goolpsy]

According to your argument, these feats are made specificly to sorcerors then? Because it enables them to apply metamagic without an increase in casting time?

According to the description... the Sudden feats should work just like the real ones, besides that they can only be used once per day, and does not increase slot level..

Sorcerors should still take a fullround to apply them, no?

 

[kjenks]

this is level of thought is awe inspiring i mean this is like saying well the FR book doesn't say that is has gravity so it must not

any fool can see the intent of the feat and to warp the intent to such a silly degee is just make the feat pointless if your going to do this you might as well just cut them out of the book

Sigh. I point out a couple of facts and what do I get? Sarcasm and name-calling.

Ask your DM which versions of the feats are used in your campaign, then follow the rules your DM uses.

If your campaign uses the "most recently published rules" meta-rule, then the Complete Arcane version of these feats is for you (without the wording that decreases casting time).

If your campaign uses sarcasm and name-calling to decide what the campaign rules are, I want no part of it.