Thrown Weapon Seeker with nothing to throw...

[Obryn]

Then I realized trident is +3/1d8 damage military vs a long bow's +2/1d10 and I realized that, damage-wise, +3/1d8 is better, and control-wise, +3 is better,

Trident's +2/1d8, not +3. Since you have to spend a feat already to get a military thrown weapon, you're better off with the +2/1d8 Tratnyr. And a better comparison is a +3/1d10 Superior Crossbow or a +2/1d12 Greatbow.

If there were any +3/1d8 Thrown weapons without a specific enchantment, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

and I stopped worrying about their damage because they have great OAs and an encounter power that throws in an extra hit.

And then I realized the only advantage of the bow-seeker is range, and that they're probably better off using crossbows than bows, and then I went to bed.

The calculation, though, is more like...

Thrown Seeker: Lower damage die, sometimes better accuracy with daggers, or drow knives. Encounter power to do damage to someone who misses you. Class ability which basically says, "We won't screw you on your AC."

Ranged Seeker: Higher damage die, usually equal accuracy, kobold shift, encounter power to move everyone away. Can't make OAs well, but won't get OA'd, either.

Apart from, "My low-AC, low-HP, low-surge Controller can get into melee and make OA's," I'm not really seeing it as equal...

EDIT: I do like Dwarves for thrown Seekers, though.

-O

 

[DracoSuave]

Trident's +2/1d8, not +3.

I'm going to stop you right here, and I'm really happy for you, bow seekers, but thrown seekers have the best to-hit bonus of all time. Of all time!

It has the Heavy Thrown property.

Throwing Seekers get +1 to hit with throwing weapons; bow seekers do not get +1 to hit with bows.

Therefore the comparision is +3/1d8 vs +2/1d10.

On a -ranger- you'd be correct. On a -seeker- you need to actually include the numbers seekers use.


But you -are- right about the feat thing. So, if you're spending a feat, it's for drow longknife, which IS +4 to hit.

Controller. +4 weapon.

Here's a question for you.

If you're playing a psion, wizard, invoker, or druid. Let's say you have a feat, and it's called 'Inverse Power Attack.' It says, essentially 'Will you take -3 damage to get +2 to hit.'

Now, a war wizard'd not take that. But if your business is control, and you're concerned about secondary attributes of damage, you take that feat..

+2 to hit is NOT TRIVIAL for any class, but especially not for a seeker, whose job as thrown, again, isn't 'deal tons of damage', but 'foil the enemy's plans.'

Hell, +2 to hit for -3 damage might even be a viable option for a striker....

Of course, a thrown seeker is kinda funny, they can take Power Throw which puts them back where they started more or less... but eh.

The main point is, you're too caught up on damage when you're comparing a non-high-damage build to a damaging build. Bonus to hit is vastly more important for a controller than what amounts to a -small- amount of damage overall; crossbows are better for seekers than bows.

And yes, bow-seekers are good too, but for a different reason.

 

[mneme]

You're not comparing +2/1d4 to +2/1d10. You're comparing +4/1d6 to +2/1d12 (in superior), or +3/1d8 to +2/1d10 (without a feat).

Was this last a typo? Without messing with hungry or farbond, I see (for the "without a feat" options):

+4 1d4 or +3 1d6 to +2 1d10

That said, I do think there's an issue with the build in that it leaves a hand free. Unless you're messing with superior hungry/farbond two handed throwing weapons, a thrown weapon seeker has a hand they can't use with a shield (not proficient with shields), can't usefully use for a second weapon (without taking feats, anyway), etc. I suppose she can carry a torch, for groups that don't like the "stick the everburning torch in your belt" solution.

 

[DracoSuave]

Having a free hand is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

I dunno, give your foes the middle finger?

 

[Obryn]

I'm going to stop you right here, and I'm really happy for you, bow seekers, but thrown seekers have the best to-hit bonus of all time. Of all time!

It has the Heavy Thrown property.

Throwing Seekers get +1 to hit with throwing weapons; bow seekers do not get +1 to hit with bows.

Therefore the comparision is +3/1d8 vs +2/1d10.

On a -ranger- you'd be correct. On a -seeker- you need to actually include the numbers seekers use.

But you -are- right about the feat thing. So, if you're spending a feat, it's for drow longknife, which IS +4 to hit.

I'm aware that thrown weapon seekers get +1 to-hit. I still think they get the short end of the stick here.

A great deal of that is because of their proficiencies. If they simply got free proficiency in something other than daggers and javelins, I'd have no real beef with them. I'd still think they were sub-par in comparison, but as it stands they're pretty well feat-taxed. (Whereas a Crossbow or Longbow seeker can very easily do without.) The fact that thrown weapons have such shorter ranges is, in my book, an automatic handicap for a Controller that isn't even figured in.

-O

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It is just that thrown seekers don´t have martial throwing weapons and shields from the go. Otherwise they are fine:

You are comparing a twohanded weapon vs a onehanded weapon.
As a thrown weapon seeker, you can take a shield proficiency feat... even the heavy one AND actually use it in their off hand.

When you have a closer look at simple and martial throwing weapons, you will notice that damage wise they are about equal (Exception is the range 3/6 trident). Javelin and dagger are both very good weapons (actually the best martial or simple throwing weapons).

Also Damage dies on 1W powers are indeed neglectible. Who cares if you do 1d8+4 or 1d6+4 damage? The Damage increase i consider worthwile is a bonus that increases damage by more than 25%. With an average of 7.5 it is a +2 bonus. Notice that a ranger with twin strike will profit greatly from a +1 bonus.

 

[Victim]

Thrown weapon seekers want to stick with spears anyway.

Polearm Momentum
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Wis 15, fighter
Benefit: Whenever you use a polearm or a spear
attack to push or slide a target 2 or more squares,
you can also knock that target prone at the end of the
forced movement.

Thrown weapon seekers have a ton of push or slide powers. If they multiclass and then pick up Polearm Momentum (possibly at paragon to make the dex requirement easier to swallow), then they're knocking enemies down and moving them. So they can make it MUCH harder for the targets to get back into position.

 

[Obryn]

You are comparing a twohanded weapon vs a onehanded weapon.
As a thrown weapon seeker, you can take a shield proficiency feat... even the heavy one AND actually use it in their off hand.

Again, this is costly. For them to do anything with that off-hand, it's costing at least a feat that maybe could be spent elsewhere. And we're maybe up to 3 feats now - SWP, Light Shield, and Heavy Shield.

-O

 

[blargney the second]

To be fair, almost ANY weapon user is going to take SWP. So it's really a difference of 2 feats if you want to use a heavy shield. Crossbowers will need Rapid Reload, so that's down to 1 different.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Thrown weapon seekers want to stick with spears anyway.



Thrown weapon seekers have a ton of push or slide powers. If they multiclass and then pick up Polearm Momentum (possibly at paragon to make the dex requirement easier to swallow), then they're knocking enemies down and moving them. So they can make it MUCH harder for the targets to get back into position.

this is nice, actually

If you think you can get away with 16 wis it could be funny. You could also use dex secondary instead of strength (18/13/13 build with a race like half orc so)

A human with 16/15/14 will also do very fine as does a 16/14/14/13 build for extra durability.
As always: if you accept a lower secondary or primary you can get into some really fun builds that should still work well enough.