Thrown Weapons... what can make them viable?

[frankthedm]

but yes, creative ideas are needed for a dedicated thrower to not be too underpowered.

Brutal throw does it reasonably well for STR based characters. The bonuses lost from Magic in the [Magic+ Modest Dex] equation get outweighed by the Str in [Big honkin' STR]. The thing is giants and other monsters with low Dex, high STR get a lot more mileage out of that feat.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20070607a has an elemental with that feat

Here is the full advancement of that critter. I have balance concerns involving Rock Chuckers with brutal throw and power throw, but here is for those who want it. [sblock=Unplatested max advancment Ruin Elemental]Great Ruin Elemental CR ?18?
LE huge elemental (earth)
Init -1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Listen +9, Spot +9
Languages Terran
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AC 24, touch 7, flat-footed 24 (-2 size, -1 dex +17 natural)
hp 567 (42 HD); DR 5/--
Fort +33, Ref +13, Will +18
Immune elemental immunities, spike stones
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Speed 40 ft. (8 squares)
Melee 2 slams +45 each (2d6+16)
Power Attack [20 point] 2 slams +25 each (2d6+36)
Ranged rock +47/+42/+37/+32 (3d6+16 19-20 crit)
Power Throw [30 point] +17/+12/+7/+2 (3d6+46 19-20 crit)
Power Throw [15 point] +32/+27/+22/+18 (3d6+31 19-20 crit)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +31; Grp +23
Atk Options Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Brutal Throw, Rapid Shot
Special Actions shock wave
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Abilities Str 42******, Dex 8, Con 28, Int 10*, Wis 15, Cha 7
SA rock throwing, shock wave
SQ elemental traits
Feats Brutal Throw[CAd] [1], Improved Bull Rush[3], Improved Sunder [6], Power Attack [9], Iron will [12], Weapon focus (rock)[15], Point Blank shot [18], Quickdraw [21], skill focus (hide)[24], Brutal throw[CAd][27], Improved crit (rock) [30], Far shot[33], Awesome blow [36], skill focus spot[39], blind fight[42]
Skills Hide +26*, Jump +18, Listen +22, Spot +25
* Ruin elementals have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of ruined stone.
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Immunities (Ex) Ruin elementals take no damage and suffer no impeded movement in the area of a spike stones spell.

Rock Throwing (Ex) It hurls rocks weighing up to 80 pounds (Medium objects) up to five range increments. The range increment is 300 feet for this ruin elemental's thrown rocks.

Shock Wave (Ex) Every 1d4 rounds, as a swift action, a ruin elemental can strike the ground to create a shock wave in a 20-foot-radius spread centered on itself. All creatures not of the earth subtype within the radius of the shock wave are treated as if bull rushed by the ruin elemental. The ruin elemental receives a +4 bonus on this check from Improved Bull Rush, as well as +4 for each size category it is larger than the targeted opponent. Creatures that fail the opposed checks are pushed back 5 feet and knocked prone.

Total Bonuses
+32 against Small creatures
+28 against Medium creatures
+24 against Large creatures
+20 against Huge creatures[/sblock]

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Technically, its not really a thrown weapon, but launching a bladed weapon- especially a 2 handed one- with the spell Whirling Blade makes for a good mook-sweeper.

And the weapon returns to the caster's hand at the end of the spell's duration.

 

[Asha'man]

Honestly, I've always seen thrown weapons as a back-up for melee focused characters. You know, orcs with Javelins, the rogue with his daggers, poisoned to taste, Dwarven fighters with their obligatory thrown hammers and axes. Something for them to do while they close in, or when fighting something they can't keep up with. Or an easy parting shot, when you need to retreat. And that makes sense. If a bow wasn't superior to just throwing a pointy stick at the guy, why use it? Not every option needs to be a viable primary tactic.

 

[Pagan priest]

I wonder if a magic glove that imparted enchantments to thrown weapons (i.e. a +2 shocking glove of throwing) would at least narrow the gap.

But it's not an easy problem to tackle.

A couple of years ago, I posted just that very item. Some people thought it would be okay, some positively hated the idea. WhenI came up with it, I was restricting it to enchanting only shuriken as a boost for a monk.

My reasoning was that shuriken are ammo, just like arrows and therefore, gloves that affected them in the same way a bow affects the arrows fired should be just fine.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Honestly, I've always seen thrown weapons as a back-up for melee focused characters.

Personally, I like to use them for opening volleys, myself. Soften up your foes before they close and your Power Attacking/Cleaving/Great Cleaving fighters will have a feast!

And that makes sense. If a bow wasn't superior to just throwing a pointy stick at the guy, why use it?

A bow is superior to thrown weapons...in certain circumstances.

If you're in close to your enemy's front line, you may have difficulty using a bow or crossbow. Many throwable weapons can at least be used in melee (albeit with a -4 penalty to the javelin), making it easier to use against a fleeing enemy who just disengaged, thus provoking AoOs. Strike with the Hammer, Spear or dagger for your AoO, then throw it when they've put some distance between you.

In addition, some of the throwable weapons are just nasty. Great Spear, anyone? Lots of damage, reach, and throwable? Gimmie, Gimmie!

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Personally, I like to use them for opening volleys, myself.

That's how I see them being used as well. It also coincides with historical usage.

I don't like the concept of trying to even out all weapons so they're all on a relatively equal footing. Some weapons are just plain better than others.

 

[pawsplay]

Hulking Hurler?

Do not call up that which you can not put down.

 

[Jack Simth]

There's a way to make it work, but you need to be a rogue or similar sneak, who can get lots and lots of extra damage on the thrown weapons.

Rogue build (straight up rogue):
Max ranks in Use Magic Device
Quick Draw
Two-Weapon Fighting (and the later upgrades as appropriet to level)
Lots and lots of Flasks of Acid, Flasks of Alchemist's Fire, plus a high caster level wand of Produce Flame (Druid version) (possibly more than one), a wand of Flame Blade (Druid spell), and a high caster level wand of Chill Touch (Sor/Wiz spell), wand of Grease.

Flame Blade and Chill Touch for close up (one is a touch spell, the other is an effect spell - they don't get in each other's way, so you can use both and two-weapon fight with touch attacks at close when needed). Flasks of Acid and Flasks of Alchemist's Fire for at range when your opponent is flat-footed. Wand of Grease to force balance checks - and when balancing, anything without five or more ranks in Balance is considered flat-footed.

Mostly, though, thrown weapons need to be used as they were traditionally used - as an opening move before a charge to soften up an opponent.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Bows have a significant disadvantage in their vulnerability to sundering. Many DMs are loathe to use Sunder too often (myself included) and so this drawback really doesn't come into play all that often.

Thrown weapons would be great for a scout, I would think. When moving enough to get skirmish damage, you're only getting one attack, so you can draw while moving and throw. And you need to be within 30' for the skirmish damage to apply, so the short ranges aren't too much of a problem.

 

[Votan]

A couple of years ago, I posted just that very item. Some people thought it would be okay, some positively hated the idea. WhenI came up with it, I was restricting it to enchanting only shuriken as a boost for a monk.

My reasoning was that shuriken are ammo, just like arrows and therefore, gloves that affected them in the same way a bow affects the arrows fired should be just fine.

It seems like good ideas come in batches.

In the case of Shuriken's it is almost silly otherwise as, given that these items are ammo, they are never going to be viable to invest in without some sort of boost. Even as a secondary combat mode, they have the problem of requiring feats to be really effective -- it is really hard to justify burning feats on thrown weapons unless you are a fighter.

I wonder how much of this is due to two features of D&D:

1) People take an enormous number of "hits" wioth thrown weapons to kill at medium or high levels. There are many examples in real fights of people being killed by a single thrown spear, arrow or axe. In D&D, people need to have a vast reserve of hit points worn down and that tends to distort the amount of ammunition required to fight a foe.

2) Magic items are so important in 3.5 that the options to make something magic will also drive weapon choice strategy. If weapon X can't be made to pierce DR/magic then it is in big trouble at medium and high levels.

3) Feats are often required to make ranged attacks work. The lower levels were items 1 and 2 are not driving strategy have the problem of people being unable to hit with a thrown spear because of astonishing ranged attack penalities and poor overall attack bonuses. To fix tthis requires a massive investment of feats . . .

I do not know how to fix this but I think that it is worth noting.