D&D (2024) Two Weapon Fighting and Nick article

[Shardstone]

Okay, so if I'm following all these interactions properly:

• Wielding two Light weapons lets you make an extra attack with one of those weapons as a bonus action (no bonus damage from your ability modifier).
• The Nick weapon mastery (found on scimitars, among other things) lets you make the extra attack granted by Light as part of the same Attack action, freeing up your bonus action.
• The Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style feat lets you add your ability modifier to damage for the extra attack from Light.
• The Dual Wielder feat, in a change from the playtest, now makes no mention of the extra attack from Light, instead it simply allows you to make an extra attack as a bonus action with a melee weapon that isn't two-handed, as long as you attacked with a Light weapon.
• Extra Attack obviously lets you make extra attacks with the Attack action.
• The new rules for weapon swapping appear to handwave drawing and stowing, letting you do both as part of an attack.

So, if you have two scimitars, you would normally be able to attack twice as part of the Attack action (because Nick), plus however many Extra Attacks you have. If you then take Dual Wielder, you can attack again with your bonus action. If you have TWF, you get to add your ability modifier to the damage, but only for the attacks you make with the Attack action (Dual Wielder doesn't interact with TWF). In theory though, you could swap out your scimitar for a longsword and actually use it with two hands (it's versatile, not two-handed, technically) for 1d10 damage, rather than the 1d6 of a rapier.

Of course, a longsword isn't finesse, so you'd have to be Strength-based to get the maximum efficiency from this combo, and invest a whole feat in it. It would seem more efficient to just do fewer attacks that add your ability bonus to the damage, rather than construct your entire build around getting an average of 2 points of extra damage per turn.

A level 5, Str 20 scimitar fighter with DW and TWF would (without Action Surge) do three attacks at 1d6 + 5 dmg, plus an extra cheeky longsword attack for 1d10 dmg. Average = 29 dmg.

By contrast, the same fighter with a greatsword would make two attacks at 2d6 + 5 dmg, for 24 dmg, but would also have two additional feat slots, one of which could be Great Weapon Master which adds a flat +6 dmg bonus and lets you attack again if you kill an opponent.

I guess the scimitar/longsword blender is more useful for crit fishing, but it's a pretty marginal gain imo.

What's wrong with this? These are weapon combos, like a fighting game. I think this is sick, and I'm glad WotC designed it this way. I'd rather be able to come up with fun combos with weapon masteries (which means creating my OWN masteries can open up MORE combos) then the boring combat of 2014.

 

[mellored]

Are you sure this is what it says? Has this been confirmed? I am surprised that it removes any drawing/stowing restrictions.

It all seems complex but reasonable otherwise.

From the last playtest

"You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack".

So if you have multi-attack, you get 1 stow and 1 draw. Nick allows you to attack as part of the attack action. So that's 3 draw OR stow.

Dual Wielder bonus attack is not included. It also has to happen "later" and must be a "weapon" so you can't mix it in.

It does that lets you stow/draw 2 at a time, but that doesn't help trying to do anything when holding a shield.

So assuming you start with a weapon out.

Attack ...
Attack stow
Draw Nick
... Dual Weapon bonus attack.

Not enough to swap again.

 

[Thommy H-H]

But that's not what you said. What you said was it's not that powerful, PC's will forget about them by mid to high levels, and not having them shouldn't make much of a difference. Which Is what I disagree with. It is an extremely significant upgrade.

I was making arguments about a couple of different (albeit connected) things tbh. But the context was how feasible it would be to ignore the whole set of rules. I'm not denying weapon masteries can be significant in and of themselves, but from the POV of a DM running a game, I don't think stuff like encounter balance is going to hinge on it, and if it does it will be moreso at lower levels than later on. So, in general, you can ignore it in games you run without it significantly changing how anything else plays.

 

[Thommy H-H]

What's wrong with this? These are weapon combos, like a fighting game. I think this is sick, and I'm glad WotC designed it this way. I'd rather be able to come up with fun combos with weapon masteries (which means creating my OWN masteries can open up MORE combos) then the boring combat of 2014.

I didn't say anything was wrong with it? The article in the OP is calling it some kind of overpowered combo. I was just saying that a) I think they're reading a couple of rules wrong and b) it's not overpowered anyway because a player would have to invest quite heavily to pull it off, and the gain is marginal.

 

[Shardstone]

I didn't say anything was wrong with it? The article in the OP is calling it some kind of overpowered combo. I was just saying that a) I think they're reading a couple of rules wrong and b) it's not overpowered anyway because a player would have to invest quite heavily to pull it off, and the gain is marginal.

Aaaah kk. My b.

 

[Charlaquin]

Are you sure this is what it says? Has this been confirmed? I am surprised that it removes any drawing/stowing restrictions.

It all seems complex but reasonable otherwise.

That’s not what it says, no. What happens is you get to draw or stow one weapon whenever you make an attack as part of the attack action. You can draw or stow a weapon before or after you make the attack, and it doesn’t have to be the weapon you attacked with. But the attack does have to be part of the attack action. There seems to be some ambiguity about whether or not the extra attack you can make with the Light property counts as part of the attack action. The wording could be interpreted that way, but I’m guessing that’s not the intent. Either way, the bonus action attack from the two weapon fighting feat is definitely not part of the attack action.

 

[mellored]

I was just saying that a) I think they're reading a couple of rules wrong

yea, they are incorrect about how much you can swap.

b) it's not overpowered anyway because a player would have to invest quite heavily to pull it off, and the gain is marginal.

With 2 scimitars, shield, a feat, bonus action, and using your Mastery.

You get 4d6+2xMod, +2 AC, and can use Dex.

Maul does 4d6+2xMod, with no other costs.

Which seems perfectly in line to me.

 

[Charlaquin]

Well, there's your problem. If every (non full caster) class gets a bump in power and versatility, but only one of the party uses those options, that character's going to seem overpowered.

When I say it's easy to remove the module, I mean that a DM can opt to not use the rules in the game without it wrecking this version of D&D. I wouldn't necessarily advocate that players within the same group pick and choose whether to use the mastery properties or not, at least if being the same power level is a concern for them.

It would give some martial classes a number of dead levels. YMMV on how much of a problem that is.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Not sure what you're asking. If you don't want to add extra affects, you don't have to.

In the case we're talking about, it has to do with the Light Property. The Light Property allows you to make an off hand attack as a bonus action if you are wielding two Light weapons. So, a lvl 5 Fighter would have two attacks as part of his Attack action, and one attack as a bonus action with the off hand. Just like 2014 DND.

If you have the weapon Mastery over a weapon that grants Nick, then the Nick Weapon Mastery allows you to make the bonus action attack granted by the Light Property and makes it a part of the Attack Action. So that same Fighter, if he were using a scimitar and had Mastery over it, would make three attacks as part of his Attack Action, and still have a bonus action to use on something else.

And that's where the Dual Wielding Feat comes in. It allows a SEPERATE Bonus Action attack, distinct from the one granted by the Light Property. So if you have mastery over Scimitar's, and are wielding two weapons, That same Fighter can then make 3 attacks as part of their action and another one with their bonus action.

Most classes don't get Masteries, however. Just predominantly martial ones, unless they take a Feat.

Like, as a DM who doesn't want to deal with all the special effects liek knockdowns and pushes and shoves and whatever these weapons do, can I just out law them or will it weaken a class?

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Like, as a DM who doesn't want to deal with all the special effects liek knockdowns and pushes and shoves and whatever these weapons do, can I just out law them or will it weaken a class?

Will you also outlaw casters casting spells? Same deal.