D&D 5E Two-Weapon Fighting Style seems ... bad

[Tormyr]

I ran a lot of math. When you factor in crits and hit%, the gap grows even farther between any of the offensive options and TWF. The only solution I found was to take away the damage modifier to the off hand and allow it gain extra attacks on the off-hand bonus attack, and allow the TWF to use non-light weapons immediately. this had the side effect of also smoothing out the early advantage TWFs had over GWFs or Duelists.

Example 1d8+mod attack action +1d8 bonus action at 1st.
2d8+mod attack action +2d8 bonus Action at 6th.

In this way a TWF stays exactly 5% ahead of the Greatsword/Maul GWF. Still comes out behind if he uses second wind (loses bonus action), on action surge (no extra bonus action), and on opportunity attacks. this does not account for leaked feats which would heavily favor GWFs, especially one hit rate is accounted for.

An yes I registered to reply to this one thread.

I seem to remember someone important saying that the while you use your bonus action to attack with your off hand, it is still part of your attack action and if you have 4 attacks, you swing 4 times with the off hand. Anyone remember if this was Mearls or someone else?

 

[Dausuul]

I know the assumption is no magic items. I get that. But, the reality is there will be magic items. So, I think that will make a difference in TWF's favor.

It does, but not enough to close the gap. At level 11+, even +3 weapons only get you halfway there. +1 weapons barely make a dent.

And remember that the dual wielder needs two magic weapons, where the great weapon wielder needs only one.

 

[Kobold Stew]

The fact that it is not only your best choice at low level, but that at high level you wouldn't even use it if you had it, makes me really hope they have retraining rules.

That's funny -- it's something like this that makes me hope that there are not retraining rules. That way, there's actually some thinking involved for the player -- one needs to choose at which end of the level spectrum one gets one's bump, rather than there being a single, undifferentiated obvious answer. With retraining, there is a simple, "right" choice and a "trap" if you don't follow it.

An yes I registered to reply to this one thread.

Welcome to the boards!

 

[Crothian]

I think what people are missing is that fighting with two weapons is awesome looking.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So, without feats, the dual shortsword fighter keeps up pretty well through level 10. From level 11 onward, s/he falls way behind. We'll see if the Dual Wielding feat fixes this.

I've seen a few folks suggest that D&D is pursuing a more complex/inter-related path to a balance-of-imbalances this time around.

This could be one of them. The GWFer has to go STR, since there aren't two-handed finesse weapons (buh-bye, katana). The TWFer has to go finesse and thus DEX.

DEX, once you max it out, gets you w/in 1 AC of the best/heaviest/most-expensive, disadvantage-imposing heavy armor in the game. It also boosts more and more important skills than STR. It also determines a much more common saving throw. It also takes care of any ranged attacks you may feel the need to make. And it adds to initiative.

So, part of the idea here could be that TWFing is there to balance the DEX fighter, who would otherwise gain too much relative to the STR fighter due to his investment in das uberstat, eventually getting him to DEX 20. By the time he's prettymuch guaranteed that 20 DEX, the GWF is ahead on damage.

Don't know how that applies to the rogue or anyone else maxing out DEX, but it's a possibility.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

It would also be very easy to design a Martial Archetype that would provide bonus abilities to two weapon fighting. I suspect a lot of future releases will address areas like this.

Randy

 

[Kaylos]

I've seen a few folks suggest that D&D is pursuing a more complex/inter-related path to a balance-of-imbalances this time around.

This could be one of them. The GWFer has to go STR, since there aren't two-handed finesse weapons (buh-bye, katana). The TWFer has to go finesse and thus DEX.

DEX, once you max it out, gets you w/in 1 AC of the best/heaviest/most-expensive, disadvantage-imposing heavy armor in the game. It also boosts more and more important skills than STR. It also determines a much more common saving throw. It also takes care of any ranged attacks you may feel the need to make. And it adds to initiative.

So, part of the idea here could be that TWFing is there to balance the DEX fighter, who would otherwise gain too much relative to the STR fighter due to his investment in das uberstat, eventually getting him to DEX 20. By the time he's prettymuch guaranteed that 20 DEX, the GWF is ahead on damage.

Don't know how that applies to the rogue or anyone else maxing out DEX, but it's a possibility.

That would be a funny way to balance it since you could just go Dex based Duelist with a shield and still do more damage than a TWF with the same benefits and higher AC. At least from level 11 on and anytime a TWF cannot use a bonus action pre-11 (second wind), anytime any level you use an action surge, or on opportunity attacks. No great weapon required really.

 

[Kaylos]

Welcome to the boards!

Thanks!

 

[Tony Vargas]

That would be a funny way to balance it since you could just go Dex based Duelist with a shield and still do more damage than a TWF with the same benefits and higher AC.

It's just a theory of balance-of-imbalances between those two fighter builds. How it might apply to a third build (that I haven't seen numbers on) is another question...

... as is how it'll hold up as more and more options are added to the system.

But, if you're like "what were they thinking!?!" Maybe they were thinking 'well, DEX is better than STR....'

 

[Dausuul]

I've seen a few folks suggest that D&D is pursuing a more complex/inter-related path to a balance-of-imbalances this time around.

This could be one of them. The GWFer has to go STR, since there aren't two-handed finesse weapons (buh-bye, katana). The TWFer has to go finesse and thus DEX.

DEX, once you max it out, gets you w/in 1 AC of the best/heaviest/most-expensive, disadvantage-imposing heavy armor in the game. It also boosts more and more important skills than STR. It also determines a much more common saving throw. It also takes care of any ranged attacks you may feel the need to make. And it adds to initiative.

So, part of the idea here could be that TWFing is there to balance the DEX fighter, who would otherwise gain too much relative to the STR fighter due to his investment in das uberstat, eventually getting him to DEX 20. By the time he's prettymuch guaranteed that 20 DEX, the GWF is ahead on damage.

Don't know how that applies to the rogue or anyone else maxing out DEX, but it's a possibility.

It's an interesting theory, and I agree that Dex, as ever, is "das uberstat" in 5E. However, if this really is what they had in mind, it's not very well thought-out. The TWF can reliably hit Dex 20 by level 6. The great weapon fighter doesn't jump ahead on damage till level 11.

Levels 3-10 are the "core" levels where campaigns spend most of their time (the XP table is designed to fast-forward you through levels 1-2, and most campaigns run out of juice before getting into the high levels). Any balancing solution that doesn't work in the 6-10 range is missing 5/8ths of the core.