D&D 5E Two-Weapon Fighting Style seems ... bad

[KarinsDad]

A Human TWF would already have the Dual Wielder feat, giving him a DPR of 15 compared to 11.33. About a 32% advantage.

Where's your math?

The average damage (without crits) for a two weapon fighter with that fighting style if he hits with both weapons is 2d6+6=13. How can his DPR (15) be greater than his average damage if he hits (13)?

Ditto for a GWF. 2D6 reroll 1s and 2s the first time +3 = 11.33 average damage (without crits). This is not DPR. DPR includes crits and a percentage chance to hit. DPR is lower than average damage.

He will not be hitting all of the time.

Even if we compare the 13 with the 11.33, it's still only a 15% increase. Your 32% advantage exaggeration is just that, an exaggeration.


And what is a Dual Wielder feat at level one that you are talking about? He use the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style for the extra 3 damage.

 

[Kaylos]

Where's your math?

The average damage (without crits) for a two weapon fighter with that fighting style if he hits with both weapons is 2d6+6=13. How can his DPR (15) be greater than his average damage if he hits (13)?

Ditto for a GWF. 2D6 reroll 1s and 2s the first time +3 = 11.33 average damage (without crits). This is not DPR. DPR includes crits and a percentage chance to hit. DPR is lower than average damage.

He will not be hitting all of the time.

Even if we compare the 13 with the 11.33, it's still only a 15% increase. Your 32% advantage exaggeration is just that, an exaggeration.


And what is a Dual Wielder feat at level one that you are talking about? He use the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style for the extra 3 damage.

The one a I quoted in my DPR post from the other thread (have you read it?).

Dual Wielder - +1 AC, Can use weapons that are not Light, stow or draw two weapons instead of one.

So for the math,

Normal TWF 16 str 3.5(1d6)+3 + 3.5(1d6)+3 = 13
Human TWF 16 str 4.5(1d8)+3 + 4.5(1d8)+3 = 15

A human great weapon user can get Great Weapon Master, but it is severely limited as a DPr boost with only 1 attack and a 20 crit range. It needs the extra attacks of level 5+ and the higher crit range of the Champion Archetype to come into its own as a DPR booster.

The Dual Wielder feat helps frontload the damage of a TWF's already highest DPR at low levels, but doesn't scale well like Great Weapon Master. It is not really a problem with the feat though, just really TWF itself.

 

[KarinsDad]

The one a I quoted in my DPR post from the other thread (have you read it?).

Nope.

Dual Wielder - +1 AC, Can use weapons that are not Light, stow or draw two weapons instead of one.

So for the math,

Normal TWF 16 str 3.5(1d6)+3 + 3.5(1d6)+3 = 13
Human TWF 16 str 4.5(1d8)+3 + 4.5(1d8)+3 = 15

A human great weapon user can get Great Weapon Master, but it is severely limited as a DPr boost with only 1 attack and a 20 crit range. It needs the extra attacks of level 5+ and the higher crit range of the Champion Archetype to come into its own as a DPR booster.

The Dual Wielder feat helps frontload the damage of a TWF's already highest DPR at low levels, but doesn't scale well like Great Weapon Master. It is not really a problem with the feat though, just really TWF itself.

Ok, got it.

So one specific race taking one specific feat can do more damage. It's still not 32% more DPR.


With a 60% chance to hit, the DPR is:

Normal TWF 16 str 3.5(1d6)+3 = 6.5 *.55 + 0.05*7(2d6)+3 = 4.075 * 2 weapons = 8.15
Normal GWF 16 str 8.333(2d6)+3 = 11.333 *.55 + 0.05*16.667(4d6)+3 = 7.2167

13% increase in damage TWF

Human TWF 16 str 4.5(1d8)+3 = 7.5 *.55 + 0.05*9(2d8)+3 = 4.725 * 2 weapons = 9.45
Human GWF 16 str 8.333(2d6)+3 = 11.333 *.55 + 0.05*16.667(4d6)+3 + 0.05*7.2167 = 7.5775

25% increase in damage TWF

But, this does not even include when the GWF fighter drops a foe. If he drops a foe every third attack (and assuming no additional crit drop), that's 7.2167 / 3 more DPR.

Assuming one foe dropped every three swings, it's:

Human TWF 16 str = 9.45
Human GWF 16 str = 9.98

And the GWF fighter at level one does 6% more damage.


I think that this is more balanced than you claim. Your 32% more damage number ignores portions of the math.

Granted, different chances to hit changes the math here, but it's still not that great of an advantage for the TWF as you claim.

 

[Kaylos]

25% is still a very large amount. As for the Great Weapon feat, it will depend on how often you are the one dropping an opponent. At 1st level that could be quite often. So until opponents get tougher, it would be very good for a Human GWF.

I have accounted for hit % in other calculations, but because of the increased time to do the math due to hit variability, I left it out.

I think you are also misunderstanding what I am getting at. I am not claiming a gross imbalance. I am claiming there is an imbalance (not insignificant) at stages. I do not feel we can minimize how much higher a TWF is in DPR against the other styles at low levels, and then claim that TWF's lower DPR at later levels is fine. If it is balanced at lower levels with a TWF having greater base DPR, then TWFs should have ratio wise the same advantage at higher levels. They gain very little to nothing that any of style of fighter could not also gain later on that justifies the drop in DPR.

 

[jadrax]

I am honestly not sure people are doing themselves any favours in getting their point across here by expressing everything in %s rather than that actual numerical increase.

 

[Kaylos]

I have heard multiple times in this thread that the Battlemaster Archetype would heavily favor TWFs, because of the extra attack. Having not seen the Battlemaster Archetype, I could not argue otherwise. However, I now have the player's handbook and have had a very close look at it. Needless to say, I did not find Battlemaster to heavily favor TWF except at low levels. Given that TWF has the higher DPR at low levels, it just seems to make a TWF even more powerful in that range, but the advantages rapidly evaporate at higher levels. Let me detail my analysis.

1. A Battlemaster gets 4 superiority dice to start at level 3, has 4 at level 7, and 6 at level 15. He can gain an extra die by taking the feat for a total of 7 by level 15. These reset with a short or long rest.

Analysis: This would tend to limit the advantage of going TWF. In small amounts, these are likely to be used whether you use a single weapon or two weapons. It really depends on how often you get a short rest to reset them. The TWF is more likely to get the "on-hit" maneuvers off when he wants them off since he would have two hits to one at low levels, but this advantage will be minimized as I will show.

2. Maneuvers effects themselves.
8 of the 16 maneuvers are "on hit."
2 maneuvers use up your bonus action, Commander's Strike and Rally.
2 maneuvers, Parry and Evasive Footwork, are bonuses to AC.
2 maneuvers, Feinting Attack and Precision Attack, increase your chance of landing a single attack.
1 maneuver, riposte, allows you to use your reaction to attack.
1 maneuver, lunging strike, extends your range.These are the ones

Analysis: I am going to start backwards.
-Lunging, riposte, feinting, and precision attacks favor Great Weapons since the focus is on a single attack and those hit harder.
-Bonuses to AC effect all styles the same. Parry may favor TWF over great weapons if the TWF is Dex based. Duelist could be Dex based as well and gain same benefit.
-Commander's and Rally eat up your bonus action, reducing TWF damage down to a greater degree than the other styles.
-The 8 on hit maneuvers favor TWF because of the extra attack. Let me show by how much. This advantage deteriorates right along with DPR as you level.

Chance to get a hit in a single turn at 60%(not counting OA's)
Level 1
Single weapon - 60% (1 attack)
TWF - 84% (2 attacks)

Level 5
Single Weapon - 84% (2 attacks)
TWF - 93.6% (3 attacks)

Level 11
Single Weapon - 93.6% (3 attacks)
TWF - 97.44%

Level 20
Single Weapon - 97.44% (4 attacks)
TWF - 98.77% (5 attacks)

Add in an OA, and the gaps closes even more.

Conclusion - Battlemaster "on hit" maneuvers heavily favor the TWF at low levels due to greater control of when you land you maneuvers. This advantage deteriorates heavily by level 5, and is negligible by level 11. The lmit on the number maneuvers means all styles gain the same DPR benefit and two maneuvers are likely outright avoid at all costs for a TWF. Battlemaster is a balanced Archetype for the all the styles from level 5 on in my opinion, which is only dissappointing because Champion heavily favors GWFs, and Eldritch Knight really sticks it specifically to the TWF with the War Magic feature offering an extra attack that a TWF would have anyways, not mention spells that would eat up the bonus action as well.