D&D 5E Two-Weapon Fighting Style seems ... bad

[Kaylos]

+1 AC when using two melee weapons, wield weapons that aren't light, draw or stow two weapons instead of one.

Great Weapon Master: Drop creature to 0 or critical hit and take another attack as a bonus action, and -5 attack penalty for +10 damage.

I reran my numbers based off this information from the other thread. I had to include crits in my numbers to account for GWF, but did not account for misses or hit %, so take it with a grain of salt. The GWF feat is a large damage boost for Champions, pushing over a 20% DPR boost at level 20.

Level 1 16 Str
Duelist - 9.5, 9.725 crit
TWF - 13, 13.35 crit
GWF Greatsword - 11.33, 11.75 crit
GWF Great Axe - 10.33, 10.70 crit

Level 4 18 Str, Crit Range 19-20 (Champion Archetype)
Duelist - 10.5, 10.95 crit
TWF - 15, 15.7 crit
GWF Greatsword - 12.33, 13.16 crit
GWF Great Axe - 11.33, 12.06 crit

Level 6 20 Str, 2 attacks
Duelist - 23, 23.9 crit
TWF - 25.5, 26.55 crit
GWF Greatsword - 26.67, 28.34 crit
GWF Great Axe - 24.67, 26.14 crit

Level 8 Feats
-Great Weapon Master: Bonus Attack on crit of kill. The math gets really funky for the bonus attack, since you have to factor % chance to get it. I did not factor in opportunity attacks triggering bonus attack.
-Dual Wielder: Use one hand weapon (d6 to d8)
Duelist - no change form level 6
TWF - 28.5, 29.85 crit
GWF Greatsword - 26.67, 31.03 crit
GWF Great Axe - 24.67, 28.62 crit

Level 11 3 attacks
Duelist - 34.5, 35.85 crit
TWF - 38, 39.8 crit
GWF Greatsword - 40, 46.34 crit
GWF Great Axe - 37, 42.74 crit

Level 15 18-20 Crit Range
Duelist - 34.5, 36.525 crit
TWF - 38, 40.7 crit
GWF Greatsword - 40, 49.38 crit
GWF Great Axe - 37, 45.48 crit

Level 20 4 attacks
Duelist - 46, 48.7 crit
TWF - 47.5, 50.875 crit
GWF Greatsword - 53.33, 65.30 crit
GWF Great Axe - 49.33, 60.15 crit

Example level 15 Greatsword Fighter math.
25(6d6, reroll 1s,2s)+15 = 40, +.15(crit chance)*25(6d6, reroll 1s,2s), = 43.75, +bonus attack .386(15% crit chance on 3 attacks)*[13.33(2d6,reroll 1s,2s)+1.25(crit DPAttack)] = 49.38

Yes, the math for level 15 and 20 for the great weapons is messed up. Crit dmg should be lightly higher as I messed up the Crit damage on the bonus attack. So both weapons should be even slightly higher at those levels. Will fix it later.

Edit: Corrected. Also note that the Champion Archetype plays to Great Weapons a lot because of the increased Crit Range than it does to other weapons. Opportunity Attacks would increase the Great Weapon Master frequency even more.

Edit #2: For a Lark, I am showing the DPR of an alt TWF that uses unmodified damage dice on bonus attack, but gets extra attacks on the bonus attack. Starts able to use any one handed weapon to keep balance linear. Not sure what one would do with the Dual Wielder feat though losing half it's benefit, but I couldn't come up with another way to give TWF a benefit.

Level 1 - 12, 12.45 crit
Level 4 - 13, 13.9 crit
Level 6 - 28, 29.8 crit
Level 8 - Alt TWF no change from feat
Level 11 - 42, 44.7 crit
Level 15 - 42, 46.05 crit
Level 20 - 56, 61.4 crit

If you notice, the base damage of the alternate TWF is exactly 5% more than a Greatsword GWF at each level, making it perfectly linear for base damage.

Example of alternate Level 20 TWF math
Alt TWF 4d8+20 + 4d8 = 56, + .15(4d8+4d8) = 61.4

Non-Champion Greatsword GWF (20 crit range only)
Level 20 - 53.33, 57.55 crit
Math - 8d6+20=53.33, +.05(33.33) = 55, + .1855(13.333+.417) = 57.55

In this way, the TWF stays linear with the Great Weapons straight from level 1, losing some power there, but gaining it later. Do not forget a TWF loses the bonus attack if he uses second wind, gets less benefit from action surge, and hits for less on opportunity attacks. However, the TWF can also use the bonus attack to attack while doing another action other than attack, which a GWF could not do.

 

[Kaylos]

It's the idea. I won't say WotC has a great record when it comes to sticking to ideas like that for more than a year or two at a time, though.

That sounds pretty good. No bonuses, just dice. Of course, it'll suck a little when you hit /just/ with the off-hand, dice-only weapon, but I guess it's better than nothing.

BTW, that also has the advantage of reducing the 'need' for two magic weapons, since the second one will be of lesser benefit when you lose it's damage bonus.

You would still get the higher chance to hit with a magic weapon though. Though I am not sure it is WotC's intention to limit the damage bonus from magic weapons on the off-hand. I saw somewhere though that the idea was that you wouldn't have more than one +3 magic item at 20, with the rest being +1 magic items. If that is the case, the off-hand would have a +1 at best compared to +3 for the main hand and a GWF having a +3 for all attacks.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Duelist gets all those benefits as well, and basically does as much damage as TWF (until surpassing it).

Sorry my bad ignore my post, dex has nothing to do with twf in 5e does it, arrgh. I guess then twf gives you more chances to attack, which is significant...?

 

[Tony Vargas]

You would still get the higher chance to hit with a magic weapon though. Though I am not sure it is WotC's intention to limit the damage bonus from magic weapons on the off-hand. I saw somewhere though that the idea was that you wouldn't have more than one +3 magic item at 20, with the rest being +1 magic items. If that is the case, the off-hand would have a +1 at best compared to +3 for the main hand and a GWF having a +3 for all attacks.

I'm sure it's not /their/ intention, but it was what you said for the variation you suggested (lack of nested quotes strikes again!).

The 'need' for two magic weapons has always been kinda overblown, though. In 3e & 4e where it was most meaningful, you could just have a secondary weapon that was one '+' behind and the cost was easy enough to cover. In 5e, yes, magic weapons are meant to be gravy, to make you 'just better,' you don't "need" them, at all, to keep up with the monsters - it's not really true: magic items make you 'just better' so without them you're just worse, but the point that a +1 less to hit isn't devastating stands.

I suppose, if you really wanted to, you could use the primary-hand weapons attack bonus for all attacks and have the off-hand weapon /only/ contribute it's damage die.

 

[sidonunspa]

Ok,

so I'm a little lost here

attacking with two weapon is a bonus action, fighter lets you add your attribute modifier to your off hand (fighting style)

extra attacks is NOT a bonus action...

Action Surge is useable once per short or long rest but is a bonus action...

so......

two handed weapon user gets his normal attacks 2d6+5 (reroll 1 and 2) while a two-weapon fighter gets 1d6+5/1d6+5

once per combat the the two handed weapon user can get a large burst of damage but if the combat lasts past 4 rounds, that huge boost of damage starts to deteriorate...

lets say you have 4 combats in row with no short rest.....

two-weapon user wins in overall damage.. and a lot more chances to crit

 

[Uller]

lets say you have 4 combats in row with no short rest.....

two-weapon user wins in overall damage.. and a lot more chances to crit

I think you are definitely not lost. I enjoy playing a twf because it is tactically more interesting than the other choices. As long as it is not too complex, too under or over powered and not open to abuse it's good.

 

[Kaylos]

Ok,

so I'm a little lost here

attacking with two weapon is a bonus action, fighter lets you add your attribute modifier to your off hand (fighting style)

extra attacks is NOT a bonus action...

Action Surge is useable once per short or long rest but is a bonus action...

so......

two handed weapon user gets his normal attacks 2d6+5 (reroll 1 and 2) while a two-weapon fighter gets 1d6+5/1d6+5

once per combat the the two handed weapon user can get a large burst of damage but if the combat lasts past 4 rounds, that huge boost of damage starts to deteriorate...

lets say you have 4 combats in row with no short rest.....

two-weapon user wins in overall damage.. and a lot more chances to crit

Action Surge does not count as a bonus action, so a TWF would still get his off-hand attack during action surge, but only once as Action Surge gives an extra action, not an extra bonus action.

What you say is correct from levels 1-4. TWF outclasses every style by are relatively speaking large margin, especially if you grab the feat at level 1 as a Human. Great Weapons can still do more damage on opportunity attacks and outdamage TWF during action surge.

From 5-10, Great Weapons even up with TWF for a normal attack/bonus attack rotation (unless feated) in addition to still having the advantage in opportunity attacks and action surge. By level 11, feated champion great weapons leaps past feated champion TWFs by a sigbificant amount, though non-champion GWFs may be closer. By level 15-20, it is really no contest, great weapons own TWF.

It is a scaling issue for TWF. Too good at level 1, relatively balanced at level 6, falling behind at level 11, and way behind level 15 on.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

It isn't that hard. I regularly fight two weapons in the SCA (armor and rattan stick martial combat). I am a core Sword and Shield guy, but have been working two sticks lately.

Sure it can be done, and not as hard as some previous editions have made it seem, but it's also not as superior to fighting with just one weapon as D&D manages to make it (for instance, your attack rate does not double.)

D&D has also always been a bit cruel to sword-and-shield fighting. For example, I've never met anyone who knows how to use a shield that doesn't know how to hit someone hard with it. And yet, attacking with your shield is, if it exists at all, specialty training (like a feat or class feature).

I know a guy who is quite adept at wielding a sword and staff (like Gandalf) which you would swear is nearly impossible (I can't do it, and I'm quite good with a staff) but he gets it done, impressively.

 

[Kaylos]

Sure it can be done, and not as hard as some previous editions have made it seem, but it's also not as superior to fighting with just one weapon as D&D manages to make it (for instance, your attack rate does not double.)

D&D has also always been a bit cruel to sword-and-shield fighting. For example, I've never met anyone who knows how to use a shield that doesn't know how to hit someone hard with it. And yet, attacking with your shield is, if it exists at all, specialty training (like a feat or class feature).

I know a guy who is quite adept at wielding a sword and staff (like Gandalf) which you would swear is nearly impossible (I can't do it, and I'm quite good with a staff) but he gets it done, impressively.

I know when I lived in the south, Single stick + Madu was pretty popular for a while, if not exactly historic. A madu is basically a staff with spear tips on the ends, usually with a boss over the hand.

As for sword and shield, it isn't all bad. A guy on reddit listed the Shield master feat, allowing a shield user to get a free shove as Bonus Action. Pretty nasty being able to get a free shove action every turn, and makes Strength a little more attractive since a Dex monkey shield user wouldn't get much benefit from it. The other styles have to give up an attack for a shove while the shield user would not. Combine that with Duelist fighting style, and the damage isn't too bad either as shown in my post above.

As for the SCA, Sword/Shield dominates the tourney lists for the most part, but there is the occasional Two Stick or Polearm fighter than wins the top tourney lists. I had a guy from my household win the Midrealm crown list with a Polearm. He is downright nasty with that damn thing and it is definitely a double weapon. He uses that buttspike to deadly effect at close range.

edit: A Duelist Shield user does about 15% less base damage (not accounting for crits) than a GWF. His 2 Ac advantage turns into about 15% less damage taken against +11 hit (21 vs 19 AC assuming defnsive taken as 2nd style). So not too far off from each other. Also he gets a free shove and against less than +11 starts to take significantly less damage than a GWF using a Greatsword/Maul.

 

[KarinsDad]

There are game elements which make TWF a lot more attractive than can be seen by a straight damage analysis.

1) Extra Attack is a single non-divisible action. If there is a single foe killed with the first swing and nobody is left in range, the action is over. So the GWF advantage at higher levels will sometimes be moot. There is no attack, move, and attack (TMK).

2) The TWF PC has had many levels of actually achieving more by dropping one foe and then attacking another. So yes, from a DPR POV, the GWF fighter does slightly better starting at level 5, but there will be circumstances where the GWF fighter kills a 2 hit point remaining foe for 20 points of damage whereas the TWF fighter kills that same foe for 10, and then damages another foe for another 10.

3) Maneuvers such as with a Battle Master have a better chance of occurring with a TWF PC since there are more attacks overall.


Doing my own straight up DPR math with a 60% chance to hit and 16 starting stat for TWF vs. Greatsword, Champion:

Level 1:

TWF: 8.15
GWF: 7.22

Level 3: Improved Critical

TWF: 8.50
GWF: 7.63

Level 4: +2 stat

TWF: 9.70
GWF: 8.23

Level 5: extra attack

TWF: 14.55
GWF: 16.47

Level 6: +2 stat

TWF: 16.35
GWF: 17.67

Level 8: feat

At this point, the GWF PC takes the Great Weapon Master feat and starts pulling away a little more with respect to DPR. Level 11, as people expected, is the level where the GWF PC really starts shining. But, that is not the entire story.

Level 11: extra attack

TWF: 21.80
GWF: 26.50 +


From an action economy POV, the TWF is still viable, even at level 11 and higher. The GWF PC has the Great Weapon Master feat, but the TWF has a lot more hit points with Tough (or some other feat or ability score that helps him). And the last extra attack at level 20 is mostly irrelevant since 95% of the adventuring career is going to be lower than that level.


TWF is not bad, it's just different. I think that WotC got the balance right here more than people think. For many encounters, the GWF fighter will be taking foes out and wasting a lot of that extra damage on the ground.