D&D 5E Two-Weapon Fighting Style seems ... bad

[AverageCitizen]

Sorta, kinda, not really. I mean, he's correct as far as that goes, but by the time you get to level 11+ (which is where TWF starts struggling) the benefit is insignificant. You're already getting three attacks a round. That's plenty of chances to hit and use your maneuvers. You don't get much of anything from adding a fourth.



Another attack at level 11 would put the TWF a bit ahead of the other two; 42.5 DPR versus the great weapon fighter's 40.

I'd suggest waiting until we see the final version of the Dual Wielder feat. I've been leaving it out of my calculations because if the TWF is using a feat, then the other fighters get one too, and that's too many unknowns. But based on the last public playtest version, +1 damage on the main weapon and +1 AC are not to be sneezed at.

Yeah, I guess it is a little early to call time of death. Thanks for the explanation!

 

[Tony Vargas]

In my experience, campaigns fold not because of mechanical issues but just because they run out of steam.
...I have a vague recollection that WotC did some kind of market research that backed that up.

When they were developing 3.0 they discovered that people 'rarely played beyond 10th level.' Or something like that. They didn't try to find out /why/, per se. But they also determined that players found the game had a 'sweet spot' at mid levels when it worked best.

I suppose it's a chicken-and-egg thing. After 25 years of playing a game that got pretty wonky after name level, people were found not to care much for high level play. So WotC mostly just playtested 3.0 at 1-10, and it ended up not working so well after 10th.

My experience with AD&D and 3e bears that out, too. In AD&D it was hard to get a party to 2nd level and maintain interest from the group - but, if you got them to 3rd or maybe 5th, they were hooked, and might go to 9th or even low teens. Of course, that was heavily-modified AD&D, because, really, who didn't modify it. 3e, no campaign I was in went beyond 14th. The group didn't break up, they'd just drop the campaign and start another with new characters when it wasn't fun anymore. In 4e, I'm in a campaign that's at 18th and still going, and running a casual one that's hit 14th. It still works at those levels in a way prior eds didn't.

It'll be interesting to see how 5e does, if it can extend the sweet spot through high levels like 4e did - if it runs into problem after 11th (when Mearls has said it 'changes') or just has a different 'feel' but is still playable.

 

[Dausuul]

It'll be interesting to see how 5e does, if it can extend the sweet spot through high levels like 4e did - if it runs into problem after 11th (when Mearls has said it 'changes') or just has a different 'feel' but is still playable.

I think it's safe to say 5E won't hit the kind of wall 3E did, where the whole system just went crazy around the early teens. Class balance may get a bit shakier, as evidenced by the dual wielder versus greatsword comparison; but I don't see anything like CoDzilla or the Batman wizard in 5E. The real question is how good a job they've done of executing that change in feel. I can't wait to see the dominion rules in the DMG...

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think it's safe to say 5E won't hit the kind of wall 3E did, where the whole system just went crazy around the early teens.

Just from what we've seen, I'm not feeling as optimistic, if only because the general structure of the classes is more reminiscent of 3e than other eds.

Class balance may get a bit shakier, as evidenced by the dual wielder versus greatsword comparison; but I don't see anything like CoDzilla or the Batman wizard in 5E.

DPRs the easiest thing to balance (also the easiest thing to /check/ for even small discrepancies) so I'm not reading much into TWF vs GWF. Self-buffing doesn't seem immediately abuseable, but Neo-Vancian is /very/ versatile, as it combines the versatility of both 3e Vancian and Spontaneous casting plus 4e at-wills and rituals.

The real question is how good a job they've done of executing that change in feel. I can't wait to see the dominion rules in the DMG...

Feel is nice, but it has to work, in the first place, to deliver it.

 

[Kaylos]

How do you figure more damage? IIRC, the duelist style gives you +2 to damage, right? And dual-wielding style lets you apply your modifier to the off-hand attack.

Let's assume 16 Dex for both. So, wielding a rapier, it's 1d8 +3 Dex +2. Averages 9.5.

Dual-wielder using two short swords or scimitars, 1d6 + 1d6 +6 (Dex twice). Averages 13.

Duelist has better AC, with the shield, but the dual-wielder has not just higher average damage, but a chance to at least deal some damage if the first one misses.

I think it's a fair trade. Or am I missing something?

Two Weapon Fighting is way ahead of everything from level 1-5. 6-11, Greatsword/Mauls pass it, Greataxe is close, and Duelist closes a lot of ground. I was going to wait until the PH was released to see how feats and subclasses affected balance, but I could post my numbers. At level 11, Duelist is in a dead heat with a TWF and passes them at 20.

 

[Kaylos]

It is viable for the fighter. It just may not be optimal for the fighter. Not everything can be. As I said above, I don't really see the difference between TWF fighter and duelist fighter as significant. It's not as though you can't build a TWF fighter who's extremely effective.

The fact that it's a better choice for the ranger doesn't mean it's a horrible one for the fighter.

Why shouldn't it be viable when a relatively simple solution exists. Multiple Bonus attacks without ability modifiers alone pretty much brings it into line, and also doesn't let it get so far ahead levels 1 through 5.

 

[Kaylos]

TWF is Kewl but otherwise silly. (And really hard to do.)

I'm glad they're not incentivising it even more than they already are.

It isn't that hard. I regularly fight two weapons in the SCA (armor and rattan stick martial combat). I am a core Sword and Shield guy, but have been working two sticks lately.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think it is to hard to judge in a vacumn. TWF does get ability score to damge on the 2nd attack if he picks it as a combat style and you could take archery as your 2nd combat style

The unknowns are magic weapons which will likely be in the game and even the starter set has them. The other unknown is par buffing via spells like add and bonus damage from whatever source.

 

[Thaumaturge]

My prediction: By the end of 5e's run, people will claim TWF is "broken", "OP", or whatever space-language people use to complain about things on the internet in the future.

Thaumaturge3000.

 

[AverageCitizen]

My prediction: By the end of 5e's run, people will claim TWF is "broken", "OP", or whatever space-language people use to complain about things on the internet in the future.

Thaumaturge3000.

Thaumaturge3000: sent from the future to prevent the publication of the "way of broken builds", a fighter's-only splatbook. By any means necessary