Sigh. Do we really have to go through this? For one, why is the wizard not creating his own scrolls, considering HE HAS THE FEAT already? So that's 12.5 gp/75 gp/187.5 gp for each scroll. Also note, if you read the post, I said one hundred, not hundreds.
So, 50x1st level spells=625 gp, 30x2nd level=2250 gp and 20x3rd=3000 gp. Ok, so, my total here is 5875 gp. So, 30% of my character wealth. To have enough scrolls of utility stuff that I'll pretty much never run out. Heck, even if I pay full market price, I'm still only spending about 2/3 of my expected wealth.
Sure, the 7
th level wizard can have lots of scrolls. But how many 1
st and 2
nd level scrolls did he use up in the course of attaining 7
th level? Which utility spells, specifically, is he scribing? I’m not sure whether you’re one of the posters who suggested lots of 10 minute per level buffs. I’d expect those to be used at least once a day of adventuring.
And he’s gone from 3
rd to 7
th level encountering 30 or less locks to make the Rogue’s Open locks useless? Or 15? 10? 5? How many L2 spells will you be carrying scrolls of? Show me this repertoire (scroll and spells carried) that renders the rest of the party into sidekicks and comic relief.
While this is far from all of the L7 wizard’s wealth, it is way more than the trivial “less than 10%/+1 sword” you previously indicated. And you are making several assumptions in the wizard’s favour. The only way he can scribe all of those scrolls himself is if they are all in his spell repertoire. He has to pay full price for the first copy of each spell (he should be able to Take 10 on the spellcraft check), plus pay for the spell book(s) to hold them, plus pay for the Handy Haversack to carry it all (and be able to access them at will, if you are so inclined).
Given the major argument is that the Wizard can have the right spell for every occasion, that’s 125 gold per L1 spell, 225 for L2, etc. (a cost which, I would tend to agree, should scale more like the cost of the scroll). How many spells does this Wizard have at each level? One book holds 100 cantrips, 100 L1 spells, 50 L2 or 33 3
rd (with 1 page left over). Halve that for travelling spellbooks. [Pathfinder made it 2 pages per spell level, 1 for 0 level]
Do you plan on having a backup spellbook, or will you risk starting from scratch if something bad happens to yours?
I mean, I think it's kind of illustrative when the solution to "Rogues are useless" is "well, let them pretend to be Wizards"
The argument above is that the Wizard is infinitely versatile since he can spend but a minor portion of his wealth to have enough utility spells to do anything. Well, at twice the price (assuming the Wizard can scribe every single scroll himself), and use of one skill point per level, the rogue can do exactly the same thing. 1 skill point per level isn’t that big a resource for a rogue. He probably has more left over than the typical wizard!
My concern with this (pre-4e) is that it tends to make the spell-casters dominant, as they get to nova every time while the martial PCs have no corresponding nova capacity.
Hence the need to have a variety of scenarios. And when does the Wizard
assume it’s safe to go Nova? If he does this in the typical wilderness encounter, a second every now and then will be a nasty shock, won’t it? For that matter, if he’s using all the best stuff as soon as he perceives any danger, a false threat will use a lot of his capacity. A couple of arrows from the trees met with a furry of casting means “flee into the woods, regroup and we’ll come back later, when most durations will have expired”. There’s lots of ways to create an apparent threat if that Wizard is trigger happy.
My main concern with this is that it makes it more likely that the wizard, rather than the rogue, will get the glory of busting through the crucial door. Whereas that's generally the shctick that the rogue player is angling for.
The Rogue’s whole identity is wound up into a single skill? Mine are quite happy to let the Wizard Knock the door – that way the Rogue need not worry about trapfinding.
My problem is that in every situation there's a solution available; provided you're a wizard. It's not that three wizards are better at something, they're good enough to succeed at everything. I also find it amusing that your solution to spells being better is to have the rogues use spells.
The Rogue can effectively duplicate the Wizard’s ability to have spellpower from wands and scrolls by investing a single skill point per level. That investment allows them access to spells not available to wizards (the cleric list). They’re better at it (how many Wizards beat the Rogue’s CHA?), and it opens up more (the Wizard had the Wizard list anyway). If ready access to purchased spells (wands and scrolls) renders the Wizard unbeatable, why is the Rogue a weak class when they can duplicate that ability with a pretty modest resource investment?
I've said how absurdly many spells a mid-high level wizard gets. Novaing at level 9 doesn't burn out all your spells.
It typically takes out most of your highest level offense spells, so you’re nowhere near as tough in the next encounter. Your L9 wizard has one L5 spell (1 + 1 bonus + 1 specialist - 2; see below) to burn in combat. He has 4 L4 spells (2 + 1 bonus + 1 specialty) and 5 L3 (3 + 1 bonus + 1 specialty). How impressive are his L1,2,3 offensive spells when the L4’s and L5 is gone?
As for "Being in enemy territory", you memorise a handful of locations then teleport back home and come back the next morning. When you've run out of your literally dozens of spells.
“Literally” means without exaggeration. I count 18 spells, plus 6 specialty, plus high INT bonus spells, so I agree – “literally dozens” being two, but not three, dozen. Two is at least plural, so I’ll give you that one.
Now, since you have to teleport to the adventure area every morning, and home when you run out of spells or decide to rest, that takes out 2 of your L9 Wizard’s three L5 spells. He has one more (and one more in the spellbook anyway, unless he bought some 1,125 gp scrolls + 500 gp scribing materials).
He can bring up to three M creatures with him, so hopefully the party is no more than 4 (including animal companions, cohorts, perhaps escorted rescuees or prisoners, horses, pack animals etc. – remember that Large counts double), or some of them have to stay behind with no wizard support.
I’ll happily give you “Very Familiar” for home base – “you feel at home”. Is that within 900 miles of every adventure location? 100 miles per caster level, remember? But you have to teleport BACK as well, That means you can currently see it (then why ‘port there?), you’ve been there often (middle of the wilderness? Not likely!) or used some means to study it for at least an hour – certainly do-able, but what if there’s an encounter during that hour, and you low on spells? Otherwise, you saw it casually, at least.
So, the trip out has only a 1 in 50 chance you miss by an average of 30.25% of the distance you teleported, and 1 in 100 you go somewhere else entirely (probably a fail – do you have TWO home bases in range?). Trip back? 1 in 33 shot (1 in 20 if you didn’t study it carefully) of being average 30% of distance off, 1 in 50 (or 1 in 25) of going somewhere similar (any other empty dungeon room; any other forest clearing?) and 1 in 100 (or 1 in 50) of “getting scrambled” – damage and a 40% chance of more damage – when you finally avoid that 40%, you’re – well - somewhere.
Of course, if you miss on the way in, you can always try again (either go home or to the desired location), but no more teleports today. If you miss on the way home? Guess you’re sleeping rough tonight!
On an occasional trip, I like your odds. But twice a day? Not so much. Those numbers will come up eventually.
The caster being blinded at the cost of the only bad guy being blinded is
not a problem. A 50% miss chance imposed on the bad guy means he's half as dangerous as he was. And easier to kill because his defences have been nerfed. Likewise Slow; the
Kraken slowed means it can no longer take full round attacks, cutting back from +28/+28, +23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23 and a bite at +23 to one single attack at +28. You've just cut
at least two thirds of the threat off the kraken.
First off, I love the Slow spell – it’s incredibly useful. So, what’s the save DC? Glitterdust is a L2 spell and Slow is L3. The Kraken is CR 12, so our Wizard, let’s say, started with 17 INT, added 3 to L12, and has a +4 item, so 24 INT. Let’s give him Spell Focus as well, but not Improved, DC 10 + 7 + 1 + SL = 20 or 21. Kraken’s Will save is +13, so he needs a 7 or 8 to avoid the effects.
That’s still better than 1/3 failure, though. So what’s an Evil, Aquatic 21 INT Kraken to do? Well, he’s probably either attacking a ship (or coast/island) or fighting underwater. If he’s not Slowed, Jet 280’ backwards and submerge. If he is, just submerge. Hope anyone already Grappled can breathe water! Oh, and may as well use a free action for that Ink Cloud.
The fact that the wizard now can either move or cast a spell is, at this point, almost irrelevant. The wizard's done his job and then some - finishing the kraken can be left to the characters that specialise in doing damage.
So he hasn’t rendered the rest of the group superfluous even if we found a mentally impaired Kraken, I guess.
He was on full hit points and out shopping. Spells memorised but none up. He also had a Solar Simulacrum to carry his shopping for him.
Yes, we forgot that all Wizards are hopelessly paranoid, and don’t take spells to make life easier (Unseen Servants and such) rather than full combat loads when safe in town. I prefer characters to caricatures myself, but everyone’s games are different.
OK. You've made up your mind that picking locks with a skill failure beats picking locks without. But how do you get by without the wizard. You don't need a healer if you have neough potions. You don't need the fighter - the Cleric or Druid can tank. But who can replace the wizard? This is the other problem.
Is it a problem? It’s a team game. You’re disadvantaged without the Warrior, the Healer, the Arcanist or the Stealth Fighter. Rogue, UMD, wands and scrolls, and potions for the team. UMD + Wand of Slow, and the Rogue gets better initiative anyway. Would they like an arcanist to better balance the team? You bet! But they will have more strength in some other areas. How much that compensates varies with each situation. But then, it’s the GM’s job to craft appropriate challenging encounters for the team.
You need to block line of effect. At that point it becomes an argument about what sort of materials block line of effect. And then keep that to hand. If you're arguing it has to be metal, line the hat with steel/wear a helmet - or play games with Shrink Object and throwing the object onto the crossbow bolt. (Alternatively picking up the crossbow bolt and firing it back).
The bolt is stuck in the wood frame – deliberately. If it’s on the ground, pick it up (Move action) + Load Crossbow (move action) is your round. The goblins close. You’re welcome to fire and take the attacks of opportunity (remember that they were in front of you and behind you).
Silence is an obvious and well known spell. There are answers within the fiction.
Yet any suggestions that the nigh universal Rope Trick would be equally obvious, well known and defensible are contrived and unreasonable. Funny, how that changes depending on whose arguments may be refuted.
Objection! The Warrior's permanents are effectively consumables. A warrior isn't normally still using the +1 sword he found at level 1 by the time he reaches level 16.
Your Honour, the Wizard can purchase scrolls of any spell of any level at any time. He can purchase any wand he desires, and there are Handy Haversacks being hawked on street corners. Surely the Warrior can locate first a craftsman to construct his desired weapon, and next an enchanter to enchant it to +1 at level 1 and augment it as he gains further levels. No doubt His Honour is familiar with the concept of renovations, refurbishment and additions.
His Honour said:
Thank you, Your Honour. I assume you are still coming round for dinner on Sunday!
In any case, even if a brand new item is commissioned, the warrior can sell the old items for half their purchase price. If the team includes an item crafter (not, I agree, as universal as a ScrollScribe) then it’s a straight trade, but even in the normal case where we pay full and receive half, that old item is worth a lot more than a scroll already cast!
