What would you say is the biggest problem with Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and other "Tier 1" Spellcasters?

[stevelabny]

...so can we duplicate the exercise and make a Fighter who hasn't found any magic items, gets excluded from certain feats you don't like, and who has her stats examined under a microscope?

-O

Well first off...no. This isn't a thread about fighters being overpowered. Its a thread about wizards being overpowered. So I want to see it.

I didn't say you didn't find ANY magic items, I said you don't get to choose them.
There's a big important difference.
Maybe the DM seeded treasure himself. maybe he rolled randomly, maybe he used a pre-written adventure. The point is... you don't get a Haversack, a Headband of Intellect, a Wand of Knock and Boots of Speed just because you asked for them.

For this exercise we are outlawing crafting feats. Which is a specific set of feats that is extremely dependent on the broken economy system. And on the amount of treasure found. If someone wants to make TWO of these uber-wizards, one without crafting feats other than scribe scroll and one WITH crafting feats and crafted items following the crafting rules. Just so we can see if crafting is even over-powered or not.



And a side note about expected wealth, and fighter items being consumable. In magic shop land, a wizard who stocks up on scrolls bought/found and casts from scroll...those were consumed. A fighter who buys/finds a +1 sword and then a +2 sword, still gets to sell his +1sword. And a mid-high level wizard being made with tons of scrolls? If he had been built up as a 1st level character who was that dependent on scrolls, he probably wouldnt have his full expected wealth by higher levels.

 

[Obryn]

Well first off...no. This isn't a thread about fighters being overpowered. Its a thread about wizards being overpowered. So I want to see it.

This isn't a vacuum. Having seen caster supremacy and the bystander effect in full force in my game, I'd say it's immensely relevant. (That's also how the tier system works - you're comparing classes' effectiveness to one another. And that's what the thread's about. So if you give one set of handicaps to one class, it's completely relevant how other classes would work with similar handicaps.)

So I can't see what you're trying to prove here. If the only test you hope turns out the way you want assumes that the DM handicaps the wizard, makes sure they never get any spell scrolls*, and only gets the 20 spells they learn from leveling up... well, that doesn't exactly sound like the system is working like it should. It sounds like the DM is compensating for a broken system.

(Also relevant: Clerics. No scroll issue there.)

-O


* For reference, a full third of minor magic items, 15% of medium ones, and 10% of major ones are scrolls. Of these, 70% are arcane.

 

[stevelabny]

And out of those scrolls that are found...how many of them will be from the list that the wizard already has? How many of the new spells will come with failed spellcraft rolls?

And like I said, my first post only said no to the crafting feats. A 10th level wizard only has TWO possible crafting feats. So if someone really wants to burn a good chunk of their money and a feat or two and a few specific spells to craft the items, okay...let's see that too.

But I think we'll quickly see that the "brokeness" either doesn't exist, or is directly tied to the CR/XPsystem or the economy.

But I never get to find out, because everytime one of these threads happens on the internet, and I ask for this super-build, I never get it. Ever.

 

[Obryn]

But I never get to find out, because everytime one of these threads happens on the internet, and I ask for this super-build, I never get it. Ever.

You're not asking for a super-build. You're handicapping the match. How many of a Fighter's new weapons will be of a type he didn't specialize in? How much armor will be worse than what he has? The same questions apply.

For fun, though, let's bypass this scroll issue; it's clear that wizards need to find spells, and if you don't let them find spells they will be weaker. Not vastly so - and not nearly as much as a Fighter without the magic items he depends on. Instead, look at druids. Clerics. Sorcerers. Heck, even Bards if you see fit. At 10th level.

 

[stevelabny]

Let's pretend that wizards NEED to find scrolls... how many "new" spells do they need to find per level? per campaign?

What's the correct amount?

There are no rules either way for this. So in my opinion, most DMs err the wrong way, and give too many new spells to a wizard..mainly by allowing them to purchase any magic item they want, which means they will ALWAYS buy one scroll of every spell they have any interest in purely for scribing purposes because of the low cost of scrolls. I say players who do this are breaking the game and handicapping the system.

Others say that players should be able to buy one scroll of every spell as they level up. And that every PC should have a Handy Haversack as a matter of course, and that if a DM says no, he is handicapping the player.

However, if you play "by the rules" a campaign starting at level one, there is no real expected wealth guideline. You will get "appropriate" treasure as you go. You will not get to choose your own items. Unless you take crafting feats, have an unlimited amount of time, and plenty of funds.

Therefore, any "wizards are broken" argument predicated on headbands of intellect, haversacks, or unlimited scrolls is a fallacy.

 

[Hussar]

Umm, by RAW in 3e, the "magic mart" is the default. If you look in your DMG, when they list the bit about creating towns and whatnot, they list a GP Limit for a given settlement. The presumption that you can buy anything that is equal to or lower than that GP limit is right there. It's not like this comes out of nowhere.

Now, sure, that's a guideline, and we can ignore it. That's what AD&D did after all - magic items were not fungible. However, we are talking about 3e, which means that magic items are presumed to be available for a given price. stevelabny, your challenge is actually counter to what the mechanics say. Which isn't to say it's not a good way to go. It might be. But, then again, it screws the non-casters WAY harder when the non-casters cannot ever buy magic items. Basically you run into the AD&D situation where everyone and their mother uses longswords because that's the most common magic weapon to find.

Also, your feat limitations are a bit strange as well. I've got scribe scroll plus two bonus feats, either of which can be crafter feats. I've also got four more feats from class which potentially can be crafting feats. Possibly one extra if I'm human. I can, by 10th level, if I choose, have pretty much every crafting feat that exists in the game.

Now, really, the only ones I need are Scribe Scroll (which I start with) and Craft Wand. Craft Wonderous is a nice one to have too. Makes for getting those Haversacks and Headbands a breeze.

Again, I'd point something out here. "Unlimited scrolls" isn't what's been talked about. It's spending a minor investment (30% of wealth by 7th level - even less as levels go up) to completely bypass the Vancian limitations on my class. Heck, it costs less to have that hundred scrolls than it does to add the Flaming quality to the fighter's +1 sword.

Meh, at the end of the day, I still can't believe that this is even an issue. Thirty years of D&D, with this issue being dealt with IN EVERY SINGLE EDITION, and people still claim that it's not an issue. I guess every D&D dev is an idiot.

 

[stevelabny]

Umm, by RAW in 3e, the "magic mart" is the default. If you look in your DMG, when they list the bit about creating towns and whatnot, they list a GP Limit for a given settlement. The presumption that you can buy anything that is equal to or lower than that GP limit is right there. It's not like this comes out of nowhere.

No. Not at all. 95% of randomly generated settlements..everything except a large city and a metropolis, has a 15,000 gp limit. The DMG goes on to say that nothing over that limit is available (no headbands of intellect +4, no high-level spells in wands) and anything under the limit is "likely available" (likely, not definitely). Tell me where I'm missing the requirement for large cities or metropolises?

Also, your feat limitations are a bit strange as well. I've got scribe scroll plus two bonus feats, either of which can be crafter feats. I've also got four more feats from class which potentially can be crafting feats. Possibly one extra if I'm human. I can, by 10th level, if I choose, have pretty much every crafting feat that exists in the game.

Why is "don't take a crafting feat" strange? I know the D&D economy is busted. I want to see if wizards are busted without crafting feats. If the entirety of wizards being over-powered is due to crafting feats, its a SUPER-SIMPLE fix then isnt it? Which again is what this thread was trying to get at.

The thread isn't "is d&d 3.x a broken rule set?" we already know the answer is yes. As it is for ANY system with that many variables and that many add-ons. The thread is about "what do you do about over-powered casters". And my answer is... don't give PCs every item they ask for, as much as that might crush some modern player's ideas of "always say yes" and whatnot. The DMG says all over the magic item section that its really easy to over-power things with a poorly placed magic item.

So, I still want to see a wizard without hand-picked magic items.

 

[delericho]

By the way, has anyone ever actually SEEN a game where everyone played a wizard (or where only one or two classes were represented, each more than once)? If they're the UberCharacter, why not?

No, but until the most recent session, my group consisted of a Cleric, Druid, Wizard (Diviner), Artificer, and Rogue. (The Druid died in the last session, and won't be coming back - the player has left the campaign.)

Incidentally, the Cleric is himself a replacement character - that player was previously playing a Psion, but the character died. Oh, and a player is about to rejoin the group, so the roster will be increasing to include a Ranger.

(The party are all 12th level, except the Artificer who died and was raised, and who hasn't yet caught back up.)

Of these, the Artificer is clearly the most powerful, though largely because the player has done a lot of work to build expertise. The Cleric is new, and so not yet really up to speed, while the Wizard seems to consistently prepare the wrong spells. Likewise, the player of the Druid was rather erratic in the choice of spells to prepare and (especially) cast. (Though it was very noticable that that character got a massive power-boost when the player started to make use of the "Spell Compendium".)

Thus far, the Rogue hasn't had any great difficulties holding his own, especially when he manages to get 4 sneak attacks in the round. But as I noted up-thread, his skills are largely useless - he's actually the one who uses knock to render his own Open Locks skill irrelevant!

 

[MarkB]

No. Not at all. 95% of randomly generated settlements..everything except a large city and a metropolis, has a 15,000 gp limit. The DMG goes on to say that nothing over that limit is available (no headbands of intellect +4, no high-level spells in wands) and anything under the limit is "likely available" (likely, not definitely). Tell me where I'm missing the requirement for large cities or metropolises?

So, even in those smaller settlements, scrolls of anything right up to 9th-level spells are likely to be available. And since an adventuring party is likely to visit many such settlements in ten levels, and several cities or metropolises, they'll see a variety of different markets, turning "likely" into "almost certain" for any particular item.

So, I still want to see a wizard without hand-picked magic items.

Sounds like something for you to do on your own time, especially as you're being cagey as to exactly what items the character could have. The default rules assume that characters of all classes will gain at least a fair amount of gear tailored to them.

 

[delericho]

This is what I want to see.
Someone who thinks wizards are over-powered needs to make me a 3.5 10th level wizard - PHB only.
Use the standard point-buy.

Your request is reasonable. Well, up to here.

DO NOT BUY ITEMS. There are no rules in the core books that say that magic shops exist and you can buy anything you want....

For the sake of this exercise, don't take other crafting feats...

This is where it gets problematic. You've just cherry-picked your examples to nerf two of the big problem areas with Wizards.

Firstly, although the RAW neither mandate (nor even imply) the existence of magic shops, it does indicate that in a settlement of size X, the characters should be able to find items of value Y available for sale... and do so reasonably easily. Additionally, when equipping a high-level character, the DMG does suggest putting a limit on the maximum a character can spend on a single item, these guidelines will have no impact on the Wizard buying low-level scrolls.

Likewise, the PHB indicates that it should be fairly easy to gain access to borrowed spellbooks for scribing low-level spells. Again, it suggests there may be difficulties with high-level spells, but that's not actually relevant here.

Finally, the only times I've ever seen a Wizard not take Craft Wondrous Item as soon as possible is if the character is being built for a one-shot, or if the group also includes an Artificer. After which, of course, they will build that headband of intellect.

(Oh, and incidentally, the net effect of all of this is that the Wizard is still more powerful than either the party Fighter and Rogue, and probably both together. All you've done is made the Cleric and Druid the undisputed top-dogs.)

However...

That means you don't automatically get other spells as scrolls. The DM made you fight goblins and orcs and sahuagin and orges and fighter/rogue bandits and maybe a sorcerer. You haven't found any spell books or scrolls.

This is the bit that I find truly unreasonable. Because if you want to look at a 10th level Wizard generated 'organically', then you should be rolling treasure up as if the character had really been generated organically. So, make 13 rolls on the treasure tables for each of levels 1-9. The Wizard should only get a quarter of each of these... but he should be allowed to pick out any items taken from those hoards that he wants to keep.

And fully a third of minor magic items, 15% of medium, and 10% of major, should be scrolls.

By stating that the Wizard hasn't found any spell books or scrolls in 10 levels of adventuring, you've moved from looking at an 'organic' example to looking at what happens in a game where the DM specifically sets out to screw over the Wizard.