WotC ruling on TWF + Flurry of Blows

[Plane Sailing]

This thread was recently drawn to my attention

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=179686


where the following comment was made by a WotC staffer

First off, I would like to apologize for taking a couple of day to get back to this question. As you may know, we have several avenues that questions can come into Wizards of the Coast from, and different people who may end up answering them. Since this was not a cut and dry answer, I wanted to coordinate with Customer Service and Sage's advice at Dragon magazine before posting the answer to your question.

quote:Since we have a staff member here, maybe he could shed some light on whether or not Monks can benefit from Flurrying and the TWF tree feats at the same time?

The simple answer is yes.

The long answer is that a monk with TWF can use both Flurry and TWF in a full attack. The penalties for doing so are added to all attacks and the additional attack gained from TWF only gets +1/2 Str bonus to damage.

Example: 4th level Monk, Str 14, BAB +3, TWF feat.
Atk: Unarmed +5 melee (1d8+2)
Flurry: 2 Unarmed +3 melee (1d8+2)
Flurry and TWF: 2 Unarmed +1 melee (1d8+2) and Unarmed +1 melee (1d8+1)

If you have a weapon, such as a sai, that is special monk weapon and you can flurry with it, you can only use that weapon as either as your primary hand attack or off-hand attack, but not both.

Example: same as above with a +1 Sai.
Flurry and TWF: 2 Unarmed +1 melee (1d8+2) and +1 Sai +2 melee (1d4+2)

or

Flurry and TWF: 2 +1 Sai +2 melee (1d4+3) and Unarmed +1 melee (1d8+1)

I wonder if this will make it into the FAQ?

I can see

 

[mikebr99]

This probably deserves a "Rules of the Game" article...


Mike

 

[dcollins]

Can I get whiplash insurance for when I'm reading current WOTC rules adjudications?

For any newcomers I'll just copy-and-paste this from the last 3.0 FAQ, p. 6:

There’s no such thing as a monk making an off-hand
unarmed attack, because monks are already using pretty much
their whole bodies for unarmed combat. For unarmed monks,
the flurry of blows ability replaces off-hand unarmed attacks.

 

[Sammael]

So, a high-level hasted fighter/monk can have as many as 10 attacks per round with a flurry and TWF? (4 attacks for BAB 16+, 2 flurry bonus attacks, 1 haste attack, 3 off-hand attacks for TWF, ITWF, GTWF)

Further, with the right feats, each of these attacks can be a trip/grapple/disarm/stun attempt. Stun the opponent, then trip him, grapple him with the Improved Trip bonus attack, and then deal automatic damage with 7 attacks - all in one round.

Insanity.

 

[mikebr99]

So, a high-level hasted fighter/monk can have as many as 10 attacks per round with a flurry and TWF? (4 attacks for BAB 16+, 2 flurry bonus attacks, 1 haste attack, 3 off-hand attacks for TWF, ITWF, GTWF)

Further, with the right feats, each of these attacks can be a trip/grapple/disarm/stun attempt. Stun the opponent, then trip him, grapple him with the Improved Trip bonus attack, and then deal automatic damage with 7 attacks - all in one round.

Insanity.

Finally a way for Monks to Shine!

Mike

 

[tauton_ikhnos]

Here's the most unarmed attacks I can find a way to squeeze with a core race (i.e., without using a thri-kreen).

Human
Monk for the first 11 levels (to get to greater flurry)
Character Feats: TWF, Improved TWF, Two-Weapon Defense, Power Attack, ?
BAB at this point: +8/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3
Change to Chaotic Alignment
Barbarian for the next 1 level (using the Whirling Frenzy variant from Unearthed Arcana)
Character Feats: Destructive Rage
BAB at this point: +9/+9/+9/+9/+9/+4/+4
Bear Warrior for the next 5 levels (to 16th) (to get brown bear)
Character Feats: Intimidating Rage
BAB at this point: +14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4
Frenzied Berserker for the next 1 level
BAB at this point: +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5
Warshaper for the next 3 levels (to 20th)
Character Feats: Greater TWF
BAB at this point: +18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3

Strength while raging (bear form) and frenzying is at +26 (+16 bear form, +6 frenzy, +4 warshaper). You would need to start with Dexterity 17 (and use at least 2 level increases on it). You would benefit most from a high Strength and Wisdom (and Constitution is good for anyone, even you).

Assume Str 16 (level +2 = 18), Dex 17 (level +3)

With an item +6 for Strength, and Magic Fang +5, you would have a total to hit bonus of +46/+46/+46/+46/+46/+46/+41/+41/+36/+36/+31.

So 11 attacks, 6 of which are at your maximum BAB, and are going to do heinous amounts of damage, especially against opponents with ACs of 50 or less (power attack).

 

[Camarath]

I have heard both that in 3.5 FoB and TWF can be used together and that they can not be used together. I wonder which will make it into the FAQ. Personally I believe that the 3.5 rules allow FoB and TWF to be used together when using monk weapons.

Here are some older links on the topic.
Does two-weapon fighting stack with flurry?
Flurry of Blows + Two Weapon Fighting?
Flurry of Blows and Two Weapon Fighting
[3.5] Monks and two weapons

 

[Darklone]

Hmm. That's really funny. Guess I'll have a second look at the monk1/clr9 archer/shuriken type and add twf and Itwf to the feat list for additional attack goodness improved by Quickened Divine Favour and Divine Might as well as GMW and other stuff... oih. How can that cleric use Flame Arrow ?

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, a high-level hasted fighter/monk can have as many as 10 attacks per round with a flurry and TWF? (4 attacks for BAB 16+, 2 flurry bonus attacks, 1 haste attack, 3 off-hand attacks for TWF, ITWF, GTWF)

Don't forget the extra shuriken with Rapid Shot.

Further, with the right feats, each of these attacks can be a trip/grapple/disarm/stun attempt.

It's debated as to whether Grappling is legal in a flurry - strictly, it is not an attack with an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon

-Hyp.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I thought there was some previous ruling that stated Flurry of Blows didn't work with TWF. Hmmm. There were a couple of threads debating this not to long ago.