D&D 5E Classes Rated By Tier

[Shadowdweller00]

Deleted: Don't really want to get into it.

 

[DaveDash]

Sounds to -me- like you're doing a fair bit of theory crafting yourself there as well. Nothing personal. Unless you've got some indisputable mathematical proof...which would be difficult given that campaigns differ...

Sometimes peoples' experiences are just different. In MY personal experience at lowish levels (=< about 7 maybe) there is a fairly significant stretch where War clerics seem to solidly outdamage Light clerics. And take more damage as well if oriented toward melee...but then that's damage that the party tank isn't also taking. Plenty of room in there to run a good chunk of a campaign or something.

I have a spreadsheet where I have plotted out the DPR of a War Cleric from level 1-20, I used this spreadsheet to compare War Cleric vs Fighter/Cleric builds. To my dismay, I discovered Sacred Flame ends up doing more damage than melee attacks on paper half the time of the clerics life time. This is War Cleric vs War Cleric, not War Cleric vs Light Cleric.

So the baseline is that yes, Sacred Flame will out damage a melee on a War Cleric at least half of their level progression, or in the case of a Greatsword, be VERY close to the same damage. Then the actual in game factors which I have outlined previously make this far more in favorable of casting sacred flame than running up and hitting things, putting the whole class design in question.

Now I know from actually playing a War Cleric and a Light Cleric, that the Light Cleric has way more damage synergy, is way less bonus action item economy fiddly, and can pump out very nice damage while still having some awesome utility abilities like warding flare. A lot of Cleric DPR comes from spells like spiritual guardians and spiritual weapon, which require a better wisdom, not strength. This is also not factoring in save or die spells like Hold Person, which becomes an awesome spell later in the game, which requires wisdom, not strength. This puts even more dark clouds over the whole class design.

The nail in the coffin for me was play testing my War Cleric at level 11 and level 17. There's a huge drop off in effectiveness. This is why Ive been exploring multi-class options for him, because he is unable to fill his role properly from the later half of the game (Level 11+). My light Cleric FYI is currently level 16, and still going strong.

If you're already have a strong frontline tank, then I can see a good use case for a War Cleric as an off tank. Otherwise, my game experience, my build tinkering, and my spreadsheets tell me there's very little reason to play one over some other choices, apart from pure RP (which is also fine).

 

[Shadowdweller00]

If you're lacking a strong frontline tank, then I can see a good use case for a War Cleric. Otherwise, my game experience, my build tinkering, and my spreadsheets tell me there's very little reason to play one over some other choices, apart from pure RP (which is also fine).

Eh, I won't pretend that I've got exhaustive experience or anything. I've mostly just found that the two domains just seem to play differently. Spiritual Guardians seems to work a whole lot better if the character is built to handle melee...which may or may not actually be the War cleric. Guided Strike seems to have great synergy with the odd spell that you do NOT want to miss...like Contagion or that high-level Inflict Wounds you've been saving for the boss. War cleric doesn't seem to have much on the light domain as far as AoE damage goes on the other hand.

Thing about "half the time of the clerics life time": Not all levels are created equal. Can't speak for anyone else...but I've yet to play a 5e game above level 15. Have played in quite a few around level 1. Magic items haven't and shouldn't be factored into class balance...but all the same I notice that there are quite a few designed to enhance melee attacks. And virtually none that enhance ranged spell attacks over the long run.

 

[guachi]

I had the pleasure of playing with a Wolf totem barbarian in AL for 7 levels. Getting advantage on all your melee attacks is awesome. Yes, it requires a party with a high number of melee PCs, but that's not very hard to do.

 

[DaveDash]

Eh, I won't pretend that I've got exhaustive experience or anything. I've mostly just found that the two domains just seem to play differently. Spiritual Guardians seems to work a whole lot better if the character is built to handle melee...which may or may not actually be the War cleric. Guided Strike seems to have great synergy with the odd spell that you do NOT want to miss...like Contagion or that high-level Inflict Wounds you've been saving for the boss. War cleric doesn't seem to have much on the light domain as far as AoE damage goes on the other hand.

Thing about "half the time of the clerics life time": Not all levels are created equal. Can't speak for anyone else...but I've yet to play a 5e game above level 15. Have played in quite a few around level 1. Magic items haven't and shouldn't be factored into class balance...but all the same I notice that there are quite a few designed to enhance melee attacks. And virtually none that enhance ranged spell attacks over the long run.

I edited that part of my post because it didn't make sense.

Guided Strike is useful some of the time yes. I have an Assassin in my group, and it makes the +10 to hit for him useful as well.... some of the time. But really players love to hoard inspiration for these kinds of things, so I find they're not very pivotal in game.

It still feels like I'm constantly making trade offs with the War Cleric.

Now in terms of the sacred flame thing, here is the breakdown. This is assuming 1d8 one handed weapon and shield. Greatsword is in favour of melee damage, but comes with a lot of drawbacks (AC and SM component annoyances).

Level 1-4: Melee damage > Sacred Flame.
Level 5-7: Sacred Flame > Melee Damage.
Level 8-11: Melee Damage > Sacred Flame.
Level 12-14: Sacred Flame > Melee damage, unless you use 2h weapon.
Level 15-17: Melee damage > Sacred Flame.
Level 18-20: Sacred Flame > Melee Damage, unless you use a 2h weapon.

Now again though I stress, using a melee weapon your DPR is lower over the course of the day because you have to run in and get closer. And also as you get higher level, Dex becomes much easier to hit than AC, and radiant damage is a vastly superior damage type than slashing.

I also found at higher levels (11 and 17) my Cleric spent more time casting spells than hitting things, which is why the whole idea of a "War" cleric felt very sub-par. If I'm casting spells from level 11 onwards more than I am attacking, I should just be a spell casting Cleric instead!

 

[Parmandur]

All of the classes are good enough to make this a pointless, or at least overly subjective exercise.

 

[Ashrym]

Again you're looking at maths and not actual play experience. You're simply theory crafting, which is what I suspected all along.

1. AC scales with CR, Dex doesn't. And in fact, dex is generally the most inferior saving throw most monsters have in the book. Sacred Flame ends up hitting far more often.
2. The damage from sacred flame is resisted by basically nothing the players will ever fight. Can't say the same for a Greatsword.
3. If you want to use a Greatsword, you're sacrificing AC. It's also arguably by RAW you're going to have issues casting spells due to VSM constraints, no such worries with Sacred Flame. If you want to use a shield, your damage is inferior through-out half of your career, I've mapped this all out in a spreadsheet.
4. You're also assuming 20 strength, what has the War Cleric given up to get that 20 strength? He needs STR, DEX, and CON. My light cleric gives up nothing to get 20 wisdom. The synergy here is MUCH better.
5. As a Light Cleric, I can attack every round because I am a ranged spell caster. I can then hide behind full cover. As a melee combatant, the War Cleric has to run up and engage enemies, and is more subject to damage and losing spells due to concentration mechanic. As a consequence of this, as a Light Cleric I don't need to worry about Resilient (CON) as much and can easily take something like Elemental Adept to complement my damage powers more (which in fact what my Light Cleric did).
6. I have a much freeer bonus action economy, meaning I'm much more flexible to use Spiritual Weapon when and how I want. Also, my Spiritual Weapon is likely +5, whereas if you're a 20 Str War Cleric, you will have made big sacrifices somewhere to get +5 wisdom.

Dude, I'm playing both classes right now in campaigns. I've tinkered with builds for both classes for hours. I've tested these builds in combat.

1) Weapon attacks scale with magic items and attack spell bonuses. Sacred flame does not.
2) I can't disagree on that but it's an edge case.
3) It takes 2 hands to wield the sword, not to hold it while freeing up one hand. This was confirmed by the developers on twitter. RAW you are not attacking with the sword at the same time you are casting a spell. Your spreadsheet is wrong because it doesn't consider all the variables and is the epitome of theorycrafting over practice like you were accusing me. Incorrectly. I also stated the war cleric was more defensive in armor (even without the shield unless a feat was spent for armor on the light cleric, or DEX invested) and the avatar ability. There is more than damage considered. Like half damage for much lower concentration DC's.
4) I stated what I was sacrificing in my example. 2 defensive feats but I would juggle that as I saw fit and more likely only take an 18 WIS for another feat. The light cleric gave up heavy armor to get that 20 WIS whether you saw it or not.
5) How so? As I see it, I have the option to do the same thing with spiritual weapon, and an alternative that doesn't require having spend a spell slot if necessary. I'm more likely to simply use spiritual weapon.

You were incorrect in your assumption I have not tested them a lot. Your testing doesn't make you more or less correct. Your experience is subjective perception and anecdotal, much like mine. That's why I include sample build concepts, specific mechanics, and why I see a particular tool in the tool box as good. I can easily have war cleric that works well because he doesn't die or lose concentration, and I can build one with 20 STR and 20 WIS that does better damage than cantrips but usually at the expense of a choice of either that or spiritual hammer so it's just a spell saver.

Light cleric has no advantages over the war cleric other than low level direct damage spells and the flare abilities, and bonus damage on sacred flame. He gives up heavy armor and abilities that enhance weapons in the group game, and the war cleric who picks up shillelagh can also pick up either thunderclap for an AoE cantrip. War domain also adds hold monster and it's pretty damaging.

 

[Ashrym]

All of the classes are good enough to make this a pointless, or at least overly subjective exercise.

See my first post in this thread. It's definitely a subjective exercise, I concur. Sometimes debate teaches me things or teaches others so it's not completely pointless. One of my personal flaws is getting sucked into debates sometimes, and the carry on more than they need to.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Eh... honestly the tier definitions here are incredibly subjective, moreso than the old 3.x tiers. And realistically we're talking about differences in power level that are easily within one or two tiers from the 3.x tier system. Simply put, there isn't enough diversity of crunch to make a diversity of class power.

I mean, there are some criticisms you can level. Druid, Ranger, Warlock, and Monk require much more system mastery, and can feel more uneven as a result. Ranger has much more reliance on spellcasting than I think most people expect from the class, and the Beastmaster's action economy is pretty unappealing. There are some spells (Bless) and feats (Sharpshooter, GWM) that don't work well with Bounded Accuracy. Any class with short rest recharge abilities has power levels that vary significantly from adventure to adventure or campaign to campaign.

Pretty much everything else, though, boils down to play style, campaign style, and thinking on your feet. My Arcane Trickster has been able to dominate most non-combat encounters, and has been able to contribute to most combat encounters, which is exactly what I wanted. This is in a 6 player party with a Bard, Cleric, and Paladin. The Ranger and Barbarian have been the ones dominating combat encounters.

 

[DaveDash]

1) Weapon attacks scale with magic items and attack spell bonuses. Sacred flame does not.
2) I can't disagree on that but it's an edge case.
3) It takes 2 hands to wield the sword, not to hold it while freeing up one hand. This was confirmed by the developers on twitter. RAW you are not attacking with the sword at the same time you are casting a spell. Your spreadsheet is wrong because it doesn't consider all the variables and is the epitome of theorycrafting over practice like you were accusing me. Incorrectly. I also stated the war cleric was more defensive in armor (even without the shield unless a feat was spent for armor on the light cleric, or DEX invested) and the avatar ability. There is more than damage considered. Like half damage for much lower concentration DC's.
4) I stated what I was sacrificing in my example. 2 defensive feats but I would juggle that as I saw fit and more likely only take an 18 WIS for another feat. The light cleric gave up heavy armor to get that 20 WIS whether you saw it or not.
5) How so? As I see it, I have the option to do the same thing with spiritual weapon, and an alternative that doesn't require having spend a spell slot if necessary. I'm more likely to simply use spiritual weapon.


Light cleric has no advantages over the war cleric other than low level direct damage spells and the flare abilities, and bonus damage on sacred flame. He gives up heavy armor and abilities that enhance weapons in the group game, and the war cleric who picks up shillelagh can also pick up either thunderclap for an AoE cantrip. War domain also adds hold monster and it's pretty damaging.

1. You can't assume magic items. I've read through a couple of official modules now and they have very few magic weapons in them. If you do assume magic items, that changes things, but it's far too open to come to any robust conclusion. Yes, you gain access to magic weapon spell, but there's usually something better to concentrate on (Bless).
3. You are still sacrificing AC to get a very marginal boost in damage over sacred flame. Then all the other factors I have outlined STILL apply, such as your actual DPR being lower because you spend rounds closing into melee to engage, your damage type being inferior, and as you level your hit percentage decreases comparatively. These are all facts I have witnessed from playing in game.
4. You're sacrificing a lot to get there. Meanwhile the Light Cleric naturally synergies with high wisdom, making them much less MAD. Again, I don't care what you do to get around the War Cleric MAD issue, you're still sacrificing more to do it - because you have more ability score dependencies. Light Cleric only depends on Wisdom. That's an irrefutable fact.
5. You are bonus action constrained as a War Cleric, because your main damage boost output relies on consuming your bonus action. Also, a lot of your spells in your list also require bonus actions. It's a waste of resources to boost Spiritual Weapon (Wisdom) and Strength, and it's much more efficient to be good at one or the other. The Light Cleric is under no such complications as they are much more bonus action efficient, leaving them to max out spiritual weapon naturally, without having to compromise in other areas. Meanwhile their cantrips WILL be doing more damage than you over the course of the day. Your 2d6+2d8+5 assumes level 14, and as a note, your extra 2d8 radiant damage can only be used once per turn, making your damage very lacklusture. Also because the Light Cleric has no investment in melee, they can quite happily focus on spells that are vastly more effective such as Hold Person/Hold Monster/Banishment/etc, with much less concern with losing concentration.

Some additional points:
6. As you get higher level as a War Cleric you attack less. Your action is consumed more and more by casting spells in combat, making the entire premise of your class sketchy. If you're not casting spells and focusing on what pathetic little melee damage that you do, the group will be suffering in other areas. No bless, no debuffs, no other things.
7. If you're using a Greatsword and trying to do melee damage, why not just go a Paladin? That class can fill that role MUCH more effectively than you.
8. Some of your arguments like resistance to B/P/S don't come into play until so late, they're not even worse considering.
9. The best defense against losing concentration is not being in line of effect. War Clerics do not have this luxury, and good luck getting far without Resilient (CON). At level 11 and above, my War Cleric was constantly losing concentration without this feat. So you now have a Cleric who needs 20 Str, 20 Wis, and also needs a feat. What's your CON? 10? Good luck with that.

The Light Cleric has so many advantages over the War Cleric, but namely flexibility. The War Cleric is not a great melee fighter, and he's not a great spell caster, unless he completely focuses on Wisdom, and then he's not as good at it as other Clerics. There is nothing he can do that another class or sub class can do better.

Many people have worked out the inferiority and bad class design of the War Cleric. Zard has in his original post, and even the Cleric guides over on the WoTC forums rubbish it. I am War Cleric player who is very fond of my character, but the class design is poor.

I've been exploring the option of Cleric 8 -> Fighter 6 -> Cleric 14, and from my play testing so far it seems like a superior path to just sticking with War Cleric. If you're going to be a melee type on the front line, you want to be half good at it. There's a bit of pain missing out on some nice Cleric spells, but the character seems much more effective overall. The main problem I have with this build is I should have taken Fighter first, as Str/Con saves are much better than Wis/Cha saves for a front line melee character (another design flaw).