D&D 5E D&D Should Have Less HP Bloat

[Gadget]

Well that is the design issue though. In 3e (the apex of whahoo power design), there were four main axes of player/monster power:

• Hit Points
• AC/Saves
• Attack bonus
• Damage

5e tried to curtail this somewhat with the bounded accuracy design principle such that it was mainly HP & Damage that scaled with level, though of course AC/Saves & Attacks progressed as well, just more slowly. With PC optimization and tactics (focus fire, action economy, items & class features), the HP bloat is designed to prevent easy alpha strikes that take monsters out too quickly/easily. I suppose they could have gone the other way and have attack bonus and AC scale more quickly with HP & damage being marginal increases but that would present other problems imho.

I do agree that they may not have nailed down the HP scaling quite right though.

 

[Steampunkette]

Allow people to roll hit points as they gain levels based on their class.

Then give them Conmod per level after that.

Combat will get WAY deadlier and faster.

Mages: 5th level
Clerics, Rogues, and Hybrids: 8th Level
Fighter Types: 12th level.

Similarly, give your creature type "Hit Dice" Cutoffs.

Aberration: 5 HD
Beast: 3 HD
Celestial: 10 HD
Construct: 12 HD
Dragon: 15 HD
Elemental: 8 HD
Fey: 4 HD
Fiend: 10 HD
Giant: 5 HD
Humanoid: 3 HD (Unless they've got a Class)
Monstrosity: 6 HD
Ooze: 4: HD
Plant: 4: HD
Undead: 7HD

Just some examples. A Storm Giant normally has 230hp from 20d12 hit dice. Instead it would have only 139 if you limited it to a maximum of 6 actual Hit Dice plus con mod.

While a Troll would wind up with 70 instead of 84. Much lower scaling of the penalty. So low-level play is largely preserved, but as things get heavier and more dangerous...

Let's just say when you're a 13th level Wizard with a con of 16 and only 5d6 of HP to tack onto your 39hp from Constitution that 6d6+9 Storm Giant Greatsword is -infinitely- more frightening. (Average HP of 59, average hit of 30 and the Giant swings twice!).

 

[fearsomepirate]

You'd have to redo all the numbers to fix HP bloat:

1. Cut the max ability score mod to +3
2. Slash the damage from various abilities. Stuff like rogue sneak attack increasing every 3 levels, and/or being d4s, or Paladin smites being d6s.
3. Monster AC curve needs to be tilted upward. Talking average AC at CR 20 needs to be around 24. I think it's 19.5 right now. High-level characters have tons of ways to get advantage, lots of attacks, etc.
4. More buff/debuff spells need to not be concentration and/or apply to multiple people when upcast. It's utterly moronic that Barkskin is Concentration, that Spiritual Armor can't be upcast, etc.

This would require of course total rebalancing of everything and re-playtesting everything, so it's just not happening.

 

[Helpful NPC Thom]

I'm totally in favor of reducing HP bloat, but 5e has made it clear that HP progression is the primary source of character progression, and the entire system is built around that. I think that the Constitution modifier to HD at each level is positively preposterous (not to mention 20 levels of HD!). Nixing this would contribute the most to reducing the HP bloat...but that's not really feasible within 5e's design paradigm.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Counterpoint.

Maybe .... just maybe .... D&D needs MOAR HIT POINT BLOAT!

Sometimes, you just want to keep hitting something, long past the point of, um, making a point.

 

[Aldarc]

Counterpoint.

Maybe .... just maybe .... D&D needs MOAR HIT POINT BLOAT!

Sometimes, you just want to keep hitting something, long past the point of, um, making a point.

I would have used this gif to express that point:

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I would have used this gif to express that point:

Oh, c'mon. Is there ever a situation when you shouldn't use a gif from the greatest film of all time, They Live?

 

[Tonguez]

yeah %e has given me a much better appreciation of 4e, its monster roles and its encounter design in particular.

i'm liking the d6 paradigm myself (all HP and all weapon damage is based on d6) and have been toying with a No HP system (just Hits per level)

 

[Minigiant]

I'm totally in favor of reducing HP bloat, but 5e has made it clear that HP progression is the primary source of character progression, and the entire system is built around that. I think that the Constitution modifier to HD at each level is positively preposterous (not to mention 20 levels of HD!). Nixing this would contribute the most to reducing the HP bloat...but that's not really feasible within 5e's design paradigm.

Well that is the design issue though. In 3e (the apex of whahoo power design), there were four main axes of player/monster power:

• Hit Points
• AC/Saves
• Attack bonus
• Damage

5e tried to curtail this somewhat with the bounded accuracy design principle such that it was mainly HP & Damage that scaled with level, though of course AC/Saves & Attacks progressed as well, just more slowly. With PC optimization and tactics (focus fire, action economy, items & class features), the HP bloat is designed to prevent easy alpha strikes that take monsters out too quickly/easily. I suppose they could have gone the other way and have attack bonus and AC scale more quickly with HP & damage being marginal increases but that would present other problems imho.

I do agree that they may not have nailed down the HP scaling quite right though.

That's the core issue innit?

IfD&D is a progression based game and you cut down the things that progress (AC, saves hit bonus) and won't allow other stuff in to keepthe game simple and classical (no powers, no feat chains, no caster/weapons checks, no new tables),then what is left will progress a lot (HP and damage)

 

[Helpful NPC Thom]

That's the core issue innit?

IfD&D is a progression based game and you cut down the things that progress (AC, saves hit bonus) and won't allow other stuff in to keepthe game simple and classical (no powers, no feat chains, no caster/weapons checks, no new tables),then what is left will progress a lot (HP and damage)

Yes. That was the stated design goal of 5e developers. My personal preference is to drastically flatten the power curve overall, starting the PCs with a little more oomph in their britches and tapering power as the game progresses. There's a reason my preferred playing range is levels 3-7. I appreciate the lower levels and the higher levels for those that want them, but the system math falls apart at either end.

Speaking of which, have you heard the Good News about Savage Worlds?