D&D 5E Is Tasha's Broken?

[Fenris-77]

Sounds like a tempest in a teacup to me. One, the DM sets the limits for a game. Two, balance, as an idea, is something that comes from the social contract at the table. No one is under duress to allow silly combos or overpowered stuff in their game, neither players nor DMs. SO cool, we have lots of options, some more powered and some less. All that means is potential variety, any arguments that the game is being broken stems from a completely unwarranted assumption that every rule is in play at every time regardless of DM or table, which it isn't.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If it's 11 damage, it's 11 of your 66 damage for the day. Without it, your damage goes down to 55.
The damage bonus is not from just the extra hit but the boosted damage on every hit* for the day.

It's not trivial but it's also not the biggest deal.
The problem is that if you choose to not get the +2 or +1 to yor primary ability score from race, you are usually not conpensated by the race choice and you could quantify approximately of what you lost.

Because if the +1 to STR on the fighter is trivual, the +1 to CHA on the fighter is even more trivial. Bsse 5th edition is so simple, you know you are getting ripped off by taking a nonmatching race. There's no hiding it.

And a lot of the new fans brought in 5th edition are gamers. So they figure out that about how much weaker a race/class combo is fast.

So the only options where race errata or floating racial ASI.

*for warriors and experts. Not so much for casters. Which causes a problem as warriors and experts as they end to need high stats to stay ahead of caster's at skills and combat until Tier 2.

Or attaching the ASIs to something else in the fiction, like culture or background.

 

[Maxperson]

Wow. 17 pages is a lot. Anyone feel like summing up the key issues? Other than the stats argument above?

About the issue above specifically, I really don't get how one extra hit over multiple fights equates to 20% more damage (or anything close). So, um, what?!

It's one extra hit AND +11 points of damage(+1 damage for 11 hits) over 5 fights. The key is that damage is so low that it doesn't take much to = 20% more, so it sounds impressive, but is pretty irrelevant.

 

[Fenris-77]

It's one extra hit AND +11 points of damage(+1 damage for 11 hits) over 5 fights. The key is that damage is so low that it doesn't take much to = 20% more, so it sounds impressive, but is pretty irrelevant.

If one extra hit and +11 Dmg is 20% of your damage over five fights you probably need to reassess your ability to build a combat character.

 

[Horwath]

It's one extra hit AND +11 points of damage(+1 damage for 11 hits) over 5 fights. The key is that damage is so low that it doesn't take much to = 20% more, so it sounds impressive, but is pretty irrelevant.

irrelevant to you, but obviously not irrelevant to many players.
and yes, 20 damage over 20 rounds a day spend in combat at low levels might not seem much, but it is difference between 90 and 110 damage for a greatsword user. Or in relative terms a 22,2% increase in damage.

But problem is, it is you main job in your party and having your int or cha going from 8 to 10 will NOT compensate for loss of 20 damage per day, if you care about combat utility of your character.


lets, raise levels a little and change class, but keep it still simple for calculations.

So, you are 8th level warlock(just got your 2nd ASI), and you get your nice "20" in cha.
or you have only 18 because of reasons...

And you do not like flashy spells or control spells. You just like to take bunch of d20s every turn and make attack rolls.
So, you invest in you eldritch blast invocations and run around with you beholdering from 4th level Summon aberration.

and let's again use 20 round of combat per day:

with 18 cha;

EB:
+7 attack,
1d10+4 damage,
2 attacks per round, 50% hit chance

Aberration:
+7 attack
1d8+7 damage
2 attacks per round, 50% hit chance

that comes down to 420(heh) damage per day


with 20 cha;

EB:
+8 attack,
1d10+5 damage,
2 attacks per round, 55% hit chance

Aberration:
+5 attack
1d8+7 damage
2 attacks per round, 55% hit chance

that comes down to 484 damage per day

so we get a difference of 64 damage per day or 15,2%. Little less extreme in RELATIVE terms than low level greatsword, but it's still a lot.
especially if it is 15% in your MAIN job, or just the job that you like the most while playing DND(or combat part of DND)


Or just to turn it around, if you are thinking that it is so irrelevant, why do you bother if players take it as an option or not?

 

[Fenris-77]

Is the variance in the damage die roll not significantly more than that? That seems like a key piece of context. (a question, not a declarative statement).

 

[Bill Zebub]

About the issue above specifically, I really don't get how one extra hit over multiple fights equates to 20% more damage (or anything close). So, um, what?!

The simplest way of looking at it is, "1 extra hit for every 20 attacks...that's just 5% more, right?"

First, that 1 extra hit is 10% more if you only hit half the time. 11 is 10% more than 10.

Second, on all 10 (now 11) of those hits, you did 1 extra damage. With a longsword, you are doing 4.5 + 3 instead of 4.5 + 2.

11 * 7.5 = 82.5
10 * 6.5 = 65
82.5 / 65 ~= 1.27
That's a 27% increase in damage.

The number varies by what weapon you are using and what AC you are trying to hit.

 

[Maxperson]

If it's 11 damage, it's 11 of your 66 damage for the day. Without it, your damage goes down to 55.

And it makes not one lick of difference most of the time. In each fight you do 2 extra damage over multiple rounds. Then in one fight.....................you hit one more time! And in a fight with 4-6 PCs and maybe an NPC or two, the creature probably isn't going to die any rounds sooner than it would have if you had not gotten the extra hit in.

So yes, going from 66 to 55 is pretty irrelevant when spread over 2-5 encounters.

The damage bonus is not from just the extra hit but the boosted damage on every hit* for the day.

As I have repeated multiple times to you, it's an extra +11 damage spread over 2-5 combats. So about 2-4 damage per multiple round fight since it's really 2.5 to combats.

It's not trivial but it's also not the biggest deal.

It is trivial. It makes virtually no difference. You aren't killing things any faster. You're just giving them a few paper cuts along the way.

The problem is that if you choose to not get the +2 or +1 to yor primary ability score from race, you are usually not conpensated by the race choice and you could quantify approximately of what you lost.

The racial abilities should be picked because you enjoy playing that race, so you come out ahead in fun. The +2, +1 to secondary abilities will likely give you better saves in some area, so you still benefit.

Because if the +1 to STR on the fighter is trivual, the +1 to CHA on the fighter is even more trivial. Bsse 5th edition is so simple, you know you are getting ripped off by taking a nonmatching race. There's no hiding it.

It's either equally trivial or better than the strength. Getting a charisma bonus means that the fighter has better potential in social situations, which will often have far greater impact on the game than doing 2 extra points of damage over multiple combats to a pack of ghouls.

And a lot of the new fans brought in 5th edition are gamers. So they figure out that about how much weaker a race/class combo is fast.

No they don't. They won't even notice 2 points of damage spread out over a combat and occasionally(2-5 combats) 1 extra hit.

 

[Maxperson]

If one extra hit and +11 Dmg is 20% of your damage over five fights you probably need to reassess your ability to build a combat character.

It doesn't take into consideration any extra damage dealing abilities. It's a white room exercise that's pretty misleading. It sounds great on paper, but doesn't mean much in play.

 

[Fenris-77]

How are we granting an extra hit without taking about AC and whatnot?