D&D General Maybe I was ALWAYs playing 4e... even in 2e

[GMforPowergamers]

I’m not quite as extreme; I generally want characters to be able to discern that other combatants are in good shape or looking shaky. So low HP is when you some cuts and bruises, and the character is looking fatigued and probably nervous/scared.

i just use bloodied (and still do in 5e) and I let PCs say there hp and how much they are down to be honest

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Right. So why would you seek healing then, if you're not injured?

I don't worry about it... they need HP back so I let them ask for hp back

Hell, why would you be cautious and avoid further risks?

in my experence most players are just (sometimes more) when at full anyway

My interpretation is quite the opposite. The loss of HP always indicates some actual injury, albeit not necessarily a serious or well defined one. This helps to better align the character knowledge with player knowledge, which I feel is important.

I just don't worry about it... mostly I let the Player decided.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I don't worry about it... they need HP back so I let them ask for hp back

But the character doesn't know they're missing HP! How can you completely dismiss the perspective of the character, inhabiting it is the whole bloody point of playing a roleplaying game!

in my experence most players are just (sometimes more) when at full anyway

I just don't worry about it... mostly I let the Player decided.

Well, glad if it works for you, but I really wouldn't want to play if the fiction and mechanics are completely unmoored from each other. I don't want to play some separate combat minigame which actually doesn't tell us what is happening in the fiction.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Yeah, I am all about the story and world building, but I do not care how they regain their Not Dead points.

They somehow know to stop adding advantageous conditions because you only need one ever, so how is that different from knowing to replenish their plot armor? Characters in fiction don't actually correlate to how people in the real world act because we're trying to do a thing here.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I'd argue that healing word is explicitly healing as are healing potions and some other spells that are so flavoured. In any case, in the narrative the there must be some in-fiction indication of missing HP or otherwise there is no in-character justification for use of HP replenishing things. There must also be some in-character understanding of how these HP restoring things help.

"Plot armour" by definition is not something the characters in the setting can be aware of, nor something that can be replenished via in-fiction resources. That's the crux of my objection.

The main problem in return with this is that, because hit points are somehow associated with injury, but are completely injury agnostic--to the point that the exact same injury to the exact same person, but only after "gaining experience" (aka levels, which if you think "plot armor" shouldn't be diegetic, I can't imagine you think "gaining extra HP in chunky integer amounts" can be diegetic either), will have varying levels of HP impact. This is strongly related to the whole "I still have 1 HP" issue, where you can be burned, struck by lightning, fall off a cliff, etc. but it's the vicious house cat that deals 1 HP damage that actually "kills" you. If HP represent injuries, they do so in a bizarrely nondescript way.

In general, the best way I've found to resolve this is to see HP as measuring either lack of fatigue or internal homeostasis.

The lack-of-fatigue side has two major issues. One, it's a bit hard to see why "got brutally stabbed by an orc" and "fell off a small cliff" result in pretty much exactly the same types and amounts of "fatigue" as "immense psychic damage from magical satire" or "got struck by magical lightning...twice." Two, "fatigue" isn't exactly easy to see, and it doesn't seem to have any association with healing anything. On the plus side, it's usually pretty easy to know when you yourself are fatigued, and even to have a rough estimate of exactly how tired vs fresh you are, and it doesn't require fancy words or anything. It's also understandable that people would get progressively more tired over the course of a day of hard work, but feel refreshed the next day, after food and rest.

The internal-homeostasis side has one major issue: it's not easy to see from the outside or the inside (shock can easily go unnoticed). However, it has two major benefits. Firstly, this is actually somewhat like real life. In real life, if you can prevent someone from going into shock due to a major injury, their odds of survival usually skyrocket. Shock can kill people who have survivable injuries because the body just can't keep going, and (believe it or not!) you literally can keep someone from going into shock purely by speaking to them (keeping them awake, putting them in the right emotional state, giving them a motivation to follow, etc.) Secondly, there's only so much a person can take. This is part of why I loved 4e's Healing Surges mechanic: Surges can't keep you alive by themselves. You could have your full complement of daily surges and still die to massive damage (instant death at negative bloodied, so taking 151% of your max HP = death). Likewise, there's only so much the body can do to keep homeostasis going, and once it's tapped out...it's tapped out, there ain't no more, exactly the same as running out of healing surges and thus getting teeny-tiny heals rather than beefy ones. It makes a great deal of sense to me that someone would know both "I am currently not well, but I can get better if I rest" and "I'm doing okay right now, but I have no spoons, sorry guys, I can't give more today."

But if you're going to demand a physical origin to hit points, those seem to me to be pretty much the ONLY options that don't cause other diegetic problems as a result....and one of the two is something a lot of people claimed they hated, while the other is still preeeeeetty diegetically iffy!

 

[Vaalingrade]

Also, if this is the worst problem letting HP be a game construct creates, then it's a damn sight better than letting people go around shouting that every PC is Wolverine because they recover all their 'injuries' overnight.

 

[Garthanos]

Not true for 1e, actually, I just tripped over this in the DMG the other day on page 82.

EDIT: also, I see I let myself get Ninja'd (or as we'd say in 3.5, Swordsage'd).

a significant part of that... one can be at fill hit points and still incapacitated

 

[GMforPowergamers]

But the character doesn't know they're missing HP!

yes they do, and I let each player come up with how and why each time... it doesn't HAVE to be the same.

How can you completely dismiss the perspective of the character,

Im not I just don't need it spelled out "this is a bruse. this is a cut, this is dyhdration"

ps... horrid wilting and vampiric touch and toll the dead all do 'necrotic' and magic missile and disintegrate both do 'force' but most people I know don't align those damage mechanics with the same fluff... although I did once freak a table out by dealing 3d4+3 'scatter from teleport' damage just to be funny

inhabiting it is the whole bloody point of playing a roleplaying game!

the point is to play a role, but when the role is not set by the game it is set by the player... I also don't need rules on how/when you need to go to teh bathroom, or what food taste like

Well, glad if it works for you, but I really wouldn't want to play if the fiction and mechanics are completely unmoored from each other.

but again you most likely do all the time. You just don't think about it. Does a mind blast and an insult from vis mock do the same in game effect, or do both have different flavors of psychic? does disintegrate telekinesis and magic missile all get the same fluff in your world?

I don't want to play some separate combat minigame which actually doesn't tell us what is happening in the fiction.

and I don't want rules for every blow and what it means

 

[Crimson Longinus]

yes they do, and I let each player come up with how and why each time... it doesn't HAVE to be the same.

Im not I just don't need it spelled out "this is a bruse. this is a cut, this is dyhdration"

But it is something! So a character beaten to two HP actually is not diegetically completely fine like you earlier claimed.

ps... horrid wilting and vampiric touch and toll the dead all do 'necrotic' and magic missile and disintegrate both do 'force' but most people I know don't align those damage mechanics with the same fluff... although I did once freak a table out by dealing 3d4+3 'scatter from teleport' damage just to be funny

the point is to play a role, but when the role is not set by the game it is set by the player... I also don't need rules on how/when you need to go to teh bathroom, or what food taste like

but again you most likely do all the time. You just don't think about it. Does a mind blast and an insult from vis mock do the same in game effect, or do both have different flavors of psychic? does disintegrate telekinesis and magic missile all get the same fluff in your world?

and I don't want rules for every blow and what it means

That we don't go into detail of the injury doesn't mean that injury didn't happen! As long as HP loss caused some sort of injury, HP is not just a plot armour and is actually diegetic, if imprecise.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

But it is something! So a character beaten to two HP actually is not diegetically completely fine like you earlier claimed.

okay so why can they run, swim, climb, jump, do research, swing a sword and shoot a bow at 100% at 2 hp?

because if you give me a paper cut or a muscle cramp I am not at 100%. I know plenty (both friend and family) in military branches and they all agree even a minor injury or pain like a headache can DRASTICLY decrease your response time and effectiveness... but in D&D a 180hp 20th level fighter down to 2hp (so 178pt of damage) is still firing on all cylinders and 100% fine for all activities.

even that... if you have 4 characters 1 has 100hp 1 has 60hp 2 have 40hp if hp=meat does that mean the guy with 100hp is tiwce the size of the other

That we don't go into detail of the injury doesn't mean that injury didn't happen!

but again... how you describe your character taking a 32pt crit from the bite of a dragon can be VERY different then how someone at the same table explains a 32pt crit from the bit of the same dragon... but if you both had 33 or more hp before that crit you are BOTH still running at 100% until you drop to 0.

HP already do no make sense. They don't make sense as meat, or injuries or anything else... they are a game concept not a real one. they are just your plot armor.

As long as HP loss caused some sort of injury, HP is not just plot armour and is actually diegetic, if imprecise.

okay, so if they are injuries why do those injuries not impede you in any way shape or form?