D&D General DM Says No Powergaming?

[payn]

It's a problem because it shouldn't be possible. These are ancient dragons. It should take a city to have a chance. Anything smaller than a city should just kiss itself goodbye. 5e changed that. Accuracy was bounded too much.

That is a matter of taste. PF2 allows a PC to kill a million goblins without breaking a sweat at level 10.

 

[Stormonu]

And, yet, players seem to be absolutely reluctant to allow an enemy an Opportunity Attack against their PC, IME. Even when the more interesting and/or tactical choice would be to move away and risk it, they choose to stay put. Even when that enemy is likely going to take a swing at them anyway on the next turn. Anyone other DMs experiencing this?

Well, this has been a problem all the way back to 1E at least. D&D has poor rules for withdrawing, repositioning and retreating, highly encouraging "getting stuck in" and staying there.

I find new players are definitely mortified to allow OA's against their characters, but veteran players tend to be more confident they can tank the hit if a more opportune action/location is to their benefit. Even more likely if someone is playing a high AC character, or a rogue with Cunning Action.

 

[Stormonu]

I'm told it's also incredibly expensive to equip enough commoners with crossbows or longbows to be able to manage this, and they may not even been proficient. An incredible number of them will die which makes it hard to gather the crops in the fall. It's way better to subcontract it out to adventurers.

Likewise, the Lord who doesn't think twice about arming a large number of his subjects with martial weapons - especially after the survivors have gotten the XP for defeating that dragon - doesn't tend to remain in charge for long.

 

[Greg Benage]

These are ancient dragons.

Oh, so we're talking an ancient red dragon with AC 22 and 546 hit points. So you need ~120 longbow hits on him to take him down, and the commoners need nat 20s. The dragon can pick his attack line, strafe, and fly away to recharge at will. Those are some brave* commoners -- too bad they're all gonna die.

This is silly, but fun.

* At least until they make their first DC 21 Wisdom save for frightful presence.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No, not really - players used to be more cautious in older editions. I find in 5E that a lot of players are overconfident that their abilities will get them out of any sort of jam they fall into. Too many times I've seen PCs leap into combats or other situations where they were waaay over their heads that a 1E/2E party would have been looking for a way around, mitigate or avoid altogether.

But if they do bust through that situation, which they almost always do, it's not overconfidence.

 

[Redwizard007]

Sure. If you contrive to have everything hit PCs while they're down you can do it with an encounter or two, or if you place a creature waaaay above their CR. I hit my group with hard encounters on a regular basis, and other than when they make a bad decision, none of the PCs die. They will ultimately win, though.

It doesn't have to be high CR creatures. A larger group of mooks makes a very good challenge, especially if they are positioned so that AOEs can't catch more than 2 or 3 of them. Anchor the mooks with 2-3 more appropriate threats and watch combats get real heated, real quick. My first PC death this campaign came from (mostly) Bandits. Last session, I almost had another with 2 stone giants and a mass of giant spiders vs 5 level 7 PCs. The player in question had more fun in that combat than he has had in years. This is with no attacking downed PCs, no DM cheese, and no unrealistic behavior from the monsters or PCs. It's just about numbers that tilt action economy away from the players and maps that offer creative combat.

 

[Greg Benage]

I'm told it's also incredibly expensive to equip enough commoners with crossbows or longbows to be able to manage this, and they may not even been proficient. An incredible number of them will die which makes it hard to gather the crops in the fall. It's way better to subcontract it out to adventurers.

It would run you 6,000gp just to equip only the 120 commoners who are up to rolling nat 20s. Subcontracting definitely seems the way to go.

 

[Stormonu]

But if they do bust through that situation, which they almost always do, it's not overconfidence.

It only takes one miscalculation to end in tears.

I haven't really seen PCs be able to rip through more than in previous editions, and I've seen several cases where the PCs were less capable of the feats I've seen with 1E/2E groups.

 

[Maxperson]

It would run you 6,000gp just to equip only the 120 commoners who are up to rolling nat 20s. Subcontracting definitely seems the way to go.

Or a couple of town bowyers who have time to make them for free from the plentiful wood to be found. Sell to the outsiders to get coin and arm your friends and family so that you survive.

Subcontracting is the best way of course, IF you know the dragon is coming in advance with enough time to go and find some suitable adventurers. Not an easy thing when dealing with a dragon.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Oh, so we're talking an ancient red dragon with AC 22 and 546 hit points. So you need ~120 longbow hits on him to take him down, and the commoners need nat 20s. The dragon can pick his attack line, strafe, and fly away to recharge at will. Those are some brave* commoners -- too bad they're all gonna die.

This is silly, but fun.

* At least until they make their first DC 21 Wisdom save for frightful presence.

Also... couldn't the GM just decide "the outcome is not in doubt" and declare that the dragon has annihilated the commoners?

I agree, it is totally silly.