D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Tony Vargas]

You liked THAC0? Seriously!?

TBF, THAC0 was simpler to understand & use than the attack matrices in 1e.

 

[overgeeked]

TBF, THAC0 was simpler to understand & use than the attack matrices in 1e.

Exactly. The difficulty of basic math, i.e. THAC0, is wildly overblown. I wouldn't say I liked it, but it wasn't the brain melting problem some people make it out to be.

 

[Minigiant]

Is any of that indicative of an issue? D&D 5E is not a grognard's game. That's a big part of it's appeal and ongoing (and growing) popularity.

It was designed as a grognards game. It just happened to be also easy to teach to beginners.

The issue is D&D vets. Core 5e is criticized heavily online by experienced 5e fans.

 

[payn]

Frankly, it feels more and more that D&D is the Crab Bucket. Whenever there's any attempt to improve, it gets pulled back down into the bucket for 'not being D&D'. When people try a different system, they get pulled back into the bucket by not being able to find people willing to play a non-name brand.

Pretty much. They tried moving from ameritrash to euro style and it was mixed results. I cant blame WOTC for being gun shy about messing with the formula.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It was designed as a grognards game. It just happened to be also easy to teach to beginners.

The issue is D&D vets. Core 5e is criticized heavily online by experienced 5e fans.

I've actually had the experience of introducing new players to games other than D&D, as well as editions other than 5e.
5e is easier for beginners than any other game currently on the shelves that they have heard of.

 

[Minigiant]

I've actually had the experience of introducing new players to games other than D&D, as well as editions other than 5e.
5e is easier for beginners than any other game currently on the shelves that they have heard of.

Exactly 5e is easy to learn and play with basic D&D stereotypes.

The issue is when you learn the game and want to graduate to complex or alternative fantasy concepts

Fartnoise-toiletsound-whompwhomp

the result is unsatisfying.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

But that's what I said.

The Warlord is only tied to the 4e setting. And it's not necessary for it.

So the Warlord isn't coming.

Not because it isn't popular. But because WOTC isn't printing Nentir Vale any time soon.

A quick search found this

The designers didn't think Warlord warranted its own class. To quote Mike Mearls' explanation of Battlemaster during the playtest:​

​

Best of all, maneuvers allow the game to model a variety of classic fighter archetypes without cluttering the system with too many new paths. You can build a swashbuckling fighter with a high Dexterity, finesse weapons, and the Parry, Riposte, and Spring Away maneuvers. A warlord-style fighter can take Commander's Strike, Maneuvering Attack, and Rally to serve as an effective combat leader.​

They felt like the battle master already covers the archetype. That's all I'm saying - they made an exception for artificer because it's such an iconic class for Eberron.

And they aren’t wrong. Like I want a full class that fills the same space as the 4e warlord (and will always downvote the name to the absolute limit of downvoting possible) in 5e, but I can recognize that every single class I want has representation in the game already, they just aren’t satisfactory for a lot of us.

If that isn’t enough for the team to include new classes, then…okay. That’s what 3pp is for.

Also the Artificer is the only one of these proposed classes with no meaningful cognate in the entire system other than itself. There weren’t even meaningful and useful magic item crafting rules until Xanathar’s, and those still don’t give any way to focus on item magic, craft, invention of devices, etc, as a character concept.

You can make a warlord, swordmage, psion, assassin, avenger, even a binder/summoner, in 5e, even if they aren’t super rad. An arcane inventor, alchemist, battle engineer? Not before Eberron you couldn’t.

 

[Oofta]

It was designed as a grognards game. It just happened to be also easy to teach to beginners.

The issue is D&D vets. Core 5e is criticized heavily online by experienced 5e fans.

People like to complain. I'm about as old school as you get, I like 5E. But I'm not constantly creating threads about how good the game is - people tend to not heap praise on something that's already popular. I think your confirmation bias is showing.

 

[James Gasik]

Yes, because everyone wants spells cast out of slots, THAC0, and more back. There are reasons 2e almost killed D&D for good (it only being saved because Peter Adkinson, CEO of WotC had enjoyed it when young).

You forgot the completely busted Mythos priests!

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yes, because everyone wants spells cast out of slots, THAC0, and more back. There are reasons 2e almost killed D&D for good (it only being saved because Peter Adkinson, CEO of WotC had enjoyed it when young).

There are a lot of reasons D&D almost died in the late 90s. 2es mechanics was not one of them. Of the numerous blogs, articles, and books about the demise of TSR, I haven't heard one say the reason D&D almost died was because of THAC0 or Vancian casting.

You liked THAC0? Seriously!?

Yes. Because it was faster. Especially when compared to the edition that replaced it. Any modifiers you had were already factored.

THAC0: "I rolled a 15, so I hit AC 2."
3e: "I rolled a 15, then add +2 for strength. then +1 for the weapon, then +3 for my mastery, then +2 for flanked, etc. etc. etc."