D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah, some people really seem to be borderline obsessed with persuasion checks. Other checks come up more often. Persuasion may be the single skill most used, but others are also used all the time. Throw in using other abilities for things like when the half-orc barbarian grabs someone by the front of the shirt and lifts them off the ground which is going to be in intimidate check using strength.

Yeah again a DM guidance issue I guess. Like a lot of the sage advice questions, it should be obvious, but many people don’t see it unless it’s pointed out, so clearly it isn’t obvious.

Well I do skill challenges.

But well... Don't make it a rule, don't expect it to be common.

The rule is that you declare actions and describe an approach and the DM decides if there is a roll and if so what the DC is. That doesn’t speak to “only persuasion can be used in a social encounter”.

Persuasion is the only default skill that does automatically cause hostility on pass or fail.

By sentence structure I’d guess you mean doesn’t, but the statement is wild however I parse it.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

There’s an inordinate amount of faux solutions in every domain that just push the real problem down 1 level.

Personally, I am in favor of faux solutions, if only because I want to ensure that the real solutions don't get hurt.

Really, we should all strongly advocate for cruelty-free faux solutions.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Old hotness: We don't like unstructured social play because that's just "Playing the DM."

New hotness: We don't like skill challenges or checks because that's just "Playing the DM."

The more things change ....

I do like unstructured social play. Never stopped.

 

[Micah Sweet]

What are the exciting parts for the DM, again? I've been running so long I may have gone excitement-blind to them.

Funny voices, and trying to figure out how to arbitrate an unexpected player choice or freakish die roll. Showing off the world you created to a bunch of folks so they can mess with it is fun too.

 

[Minigiant]

The rule is that you declare actions and describe an approach and the DM decides if there is a roll and if so what the DC is. That doesn’t speak to “only persuasion can be used in a social encounter”.

Sure.

But like I said, in most social situations due to 5e's simple skill system, most player driven social encounters when the party isn't looking for hostility is going to be Persuasion.

There's no Appraisal/Commerce, Streetwise, or Etiquette skills in default 5e that might cut into the pie in common situations.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure.

But like I said, in most social situations due to 5e's simple skill system, most player driven social encounters when the party isn't looking for hostility is going to be Persuasion.

There's no Appraisal/Commerce, Streetwise, or Etiquette skills in default 5e that might cut into the pie in common situations.

Yeah, that's definitely a problem with the skill system.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Sure.

But like I said, in most social situations due to 5e's simple skill system, most player driven social encounters when the party isn't looking for hostility is going to be Persuasion.

Deception and Insight are both also pretty massive in my experience.

There's no Appraisal/Commerce, Streetwise, or Etiquette skills in default 5e that might cut into the pie in common situations.

Investigation and History both go a long way to covering those niches.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure.

But like I said, in most social situations due to 5e's simple skill system, most player driven social encounters when the party isn't looking for hostility is going to be Persuasion.

There's no Appraisal/Commerce, Streetwise, or Etiquette skills in default 5e that might cut into the pie in common situations.

Deception, Insight, Intimidation, just for a start, are all explicitly social skills.

Hell I see a lot more insight checks in actual play shows than persuasion.

The 2024 rules are looking like they'll help a good bit with this, but I do worry that by defining so many specific actions, they will create a dramatic increase in the "RAW only/if we aren't playing by the rules as written why are we using rules at all??!!!1!!" mentality.

I wish they'd address this via open guidance to both DMs and Players about how to use skills in ways that aren't immediately obvious to everyone, like using Athletics to keep pace with and then outrun a training NPC to create a mutual activity bond and then show off a bit, in place of persuasion. If it fails, let the player decide whether they fail to do the physical thing, or fail to leverage the physical action to the social result they wanted.

Oh well. I guess that's why I'm writing my own game lol

 

[FrogReaver]

Yeah, that's definitely a problem with the skill system.

Imo. Feature not a bug.

 

[Minigiant]

Deception and Insight are both also pretty massive in my experience.

Deception, Insight, Intimidation, just for a start, are all explicitly social skills.

Sure but not as common I suspect compared to Persuasion.

Intimidation likely causes hostility or downgraded relationship.
Deception might to if discovers.
And Insight is often a defensive skill involved by the DM and has that "If you fail you don't know you've been lied to" issue.

So like @doctorbadwolf , experience comes from DM guidance and knowledge. And the 5e 0014 DMG stunk at that.

So it is easy to expect or experience just aLOT of Persuasion checks.