D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Crimson Longinus]

Paladins should use wisdom instead of charisma.

 

[Oofta]

Never said D&D is failing. Dismissing my argument is not disproving it.

5e is a great system.

But including 4 of your 12 Charisma classes in the PHB and having all the active social skills be Charisma with no mitigation for that is bad design objectively.

I'm not dismissing, I'm disagreeing and pointing out that your experience is not universal. There are only so many ability scores and charisma based skills are no more important in games I've played than any other skill. There's also nothing stopping anyone that is not charisma based from having a decent bonus. You don't have to be maximized to be effective.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Never said D&D is failing. Dismissing my argument is not disproving it.

5e is a great system.

But including 4 of your 12 Charisma classes in the PHB and having all the active social skills be Charisma with no mitigation for that is bad design objectively.

The Paladin is a Charisma-secondary class unless dipping warlock. If we're counting secondary stats for each class we have:

• Strength 4 (Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Cleric)
• Dexterity 4 (Rogue, Ranger, Monk, Fighter)
• Con 0 (and arguably all)
• Int 1+ (Wizard (+Artificer))
• Wis 4 (Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Monk)
• Cha 4 (Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock, Paladin)

I don't think that's a bad balance - although I'm not including dexadins and dex-clerics there.

There is a problem, as you say, with so little support being given to the social pillar especially for non-mages. I would however disagree that Insight and Stealth aren't social skills.

 

[Minigiant]

The Paladin is a Charisma-secondary class unless dipping warlock. If we're counting secondary stats for each class we have:

• Strength 4 (Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Cleric)
• Dexterity 4 (Rogue, Ranger, Monk, Fighter)
• Con 0 (and arguably all)
• Int 1+ (Wizard (+Artificer))
• Wis 4 (Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Monk)
• Cha 4 (Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock, Paladin)

I don't think that's a bad balance - although I'm not including dexadins and dex-clerics there.

There is a problem, as you say, with so little support being given to the social pillar especially for non-mages. I would however disagree that Insight and Stealth aren't social skills.

It's bad balance if the majority of Social Interaction is Charisma.

Exploration is split between every score.
Combat is split between every score.
Social is 4/5 Charisma and 1/5 Wisdom.

Which would be okay if there was mitigation. But there isn't.

And people who run full scene spotlight game claim there is no problem because they lack empathy for other styles of play.

D&D is diverse and 5e should have been designed for or guidance for a diverse community. But it wasn't.

 

[Oofta]

It's bad balance if the majority of Social Interaction is Charisma.

Exploration is split between every score.
Combat is split between every score.
Social is 4/5 Charisma and 1/5 Wisdom.

Which would be okay if there was mitigation. But there isn't.

And people who run full scene spotlight game claim there is no problem because they lack empathy for other styles of play.

D&D is diverse and 5e should have been designed for or guidance for a diverse community. But it wasn't.

You are stuck on this idea that you can only participate in social encounters if you have maximum possible charisma score and training in persuasion. Neither is true. There are plenty of ways to contribute using other skills. Charisma based skills are no more important in games I've played than any other skill. In some ways they're likely less important to have a high number because it's so easy to assist and grant advantage.

That's the fundamental disagreement and repeating your opinion incessantly doesn't make it any more true.

 

[Minigiant]

You are stuck on this idea that you can only participate in social encounters if you have maximum possible charisma score and training in persuasion. Neither is true. There are plenty of ways to contribute using other skills. Charisma based skills are no more important in games I've played than any other skill. In some ways they're likely less important to have a high number because it's so easy to assist and grant advantage.

That's the fundamental disagreement and repeating your opinion incessantly doesn't make it any more true.

You are stuck on the idea that there is only one way to play.

My point is that that is two of the default ways WOTC says how to play. But they don't support them mechanically in a fun nor fair way.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I learned with that unholy mess of rules as well. And that’s why I’m a huge cheerleader for simpler rules, and minimizing contradictions.

Yeah, you and I stuck with the game, but I know quite a few people who bounced off of it or who never started because of the impenetrable thicket of rules.

This is very true and important.

The way WotC thought the game was going to played in 2014 (with 6 to 8 encounters between long rests) isn’t the way most new players play, because the big streaming shows don’t consistently have 6-8 encounters between long rests).

I don’t think anyone is playing how they play because streamers. Like DMs take ideas from them, I know I’ve stolen ideas from Matt Mercer, Brennan Lee Mulligan, Aabria Iyengar, Mark Humes, Brian Murphy, Griffin McElroy, Jerry Holkins in his guise as Jerriford K Horkrims, DM of Teh C Teams, and Victoria from Broadswords, and certainly at least a few others. But nothing I’ve seen suggests that any of these shows have anything at all to do with groups not doing long adventuring days. This was a thing before the rise of streaming, and it is now dominant because anyone who isn’t playing with the baggage of old school D&D is vastly less inclined to see 6 battles in a day as reasonable.

 

[Oofta]

You are stuck on the idea that there is only one way to play.

My point is that that is two of the default ways WOTC says how to play. But they don't support them mechanically in a fun nor fair way.

Please point out where it says this is the only way to play. That you must maximize persuasion and that persuasion (or any other charisma based ability) is the only useful ability.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's bad balance if the majority of Social Interaction is Charisma.

Exploration is split between every score.
Combat is split between every score.
Social is 4/5 Charisma and 1/5 Wisdom.

Which would be okay if there was mitigation. But there isn't.

And people who run full scene spotlight game claim there is no problem because they lack empathy for other styles of play.

D&D is diverse and 5e should have been designed for or guidance for a diverse community. But it wasn't.

I would argue that different parts of the gaming community should have different games designed for them. D&D absolutely doesn't have to accommodate everything.

 

[Scribe]

Getting real 'if I dont start with a 16 its worthless' vibes all over again.