D&D (2024) Treantmonk's Ranger DPS video:

[UngeheuerLich]

I dont know what Treantmonk’s math says. My math says Graze is very good. It does get worse if you hit more often, but it takes hitting very consistently before Vex or Topple overtake Graze for single-target DPR.

Lets assume 60% hit chance, 18 Strength. Great weapon mastery. Great weapon fighting. And divine favor.

Lets compare maul with great sword, 2 Attacks. (level 5)

Graze:
0.6*(2d6+1d4+7) + 0.4*4
Average
0.6*(8+3.25+7) + 0.4*4
= 0.6*18.25 + 0.4*4
= 12.25 per hit.

24.5 for 2 attacks.

Topple (assuming 60% chance to work)

First attack:
0.6*18.25 = 10.95

Second attack:
0.4*0.6*18.25 + 0.6*0.6*(1-0.4^2)*18.25 + 0.6*0.4*0.6*18.25
=12.5268

10.95+12.5268 = 22.4 (Edit: I made a copy error here)

So we are looking at a bit lower number numbers with 60% hit rate and 60% topple rate with 2 hits.

I did not factor in crits. I did not factor in that if you kill the foe in the first attack and have to attack a second one without advantage. But then you get an extra attack.
I also did not factor in more than one person whacking on the downed foe with advantage.

So as I said: graze is good. But with a little bit of team play and getting hit bonuses, graze falls a bit behind.

On the other hand, topple might be a "win more" thing. Graze is effective if things get harder if you are the only front liner, especially if other characters want to hit with ranged attacks.

 

[Horwath]

Lets assume 60% hit chance, 18 Strength. Great weapon mastery. Great weapon fighting. And divine favor.

Lets compare maul with great sword, 2 Attacks. (level 5)

Graze:
0.6*(2d6+1d4+7) + 0.4*4
Average
0.6*(8+3.25+7) + 0.4*4
= 0.6*18.25 + 0.4*4
= 12.25 per hit.

24.5 for 2 attacks.

Topple (assuming 60% chance to work)

First attack:
0.6*18.25 = 10.95

Second attack:
0.4*0.6*18.25 + 0.6*0.6*(1-0.4^2)*18.25 + 0.6*0.4*0.6*18.25
=12.5268

10.95+13.5268 = 23.4

So we are looking at a bit lower number numbers with 60% hit rate and 60% topple rate with 2 hits.

I did not factor in crits. I did not factor in that if you kill the foe in the first attack and have to attack a second one without advantage. But then you get an extra attack.
I also did not factor in more than one person whacking on the downed foe with advantage.

So as I said: graze is good. But with a little bit of team play and getting hit bonuses, graze falls a bit behind.

On the other hand, topple might be a "win more" thing. Graze is effective if things get harder if you are the only front liner, especially if other characters want to hit with ranged attacks.

Topple requires teamwork and initiative luck.
you want to act right after your ranged allies and before all your melee alies.
If your DM allows older editions Delay mechanics it works, if not, there needs to be Ready action usage and loss of Reaction slots.

graze is a no brainer that simply works, and it works better the tougher opponents you face.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I became curious. How is it with 65% chance to hit?

Graze:
0.65*18.25 + 0.35*4
= 13.2625

26.525 for 2 attacks.

Topple (assuming 65% chance to work)
First attack:
0.65*18.25 = 11.863

Second attack:
0.35*0.65*18.25 + 0.65*0.65*(1-0.35^2)*18.25 + 0.65*0.35*0.65*18.25 = 13.617

11.863 + 13.617 = 25.48

I now see I had an error in my last post.

But here the gap is closed by 1 DPR.

But that does not matter that much. My point stands: graze is slow and steady. Topple is damage in bigger bursts. Often bursts are better because the chances to down someonen in a few swings are higher.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Topple requires teamwork and initiative luck.
you want to act right after your ranged allies and before all your melee alies.
If your DM allows older editions Delay mechanics it works, if not, there needs to be Ready action usage and loss of Reaction slots.

Alert might be a good origin feat here.
You cam now swap.

graze is a no brainer that simply works, and it works better the tougher opponents you face.

Which is what I wrote in my post.

On the other hand, against foes where you miss conatantly, 5 guaranteed damage per swing won't make a difference anyway.

There seems tonbe a sweet spot for graze though. I think it is well balanced against Topple.
(My initial post was posted under the assumption that topple always worked. I forgot the saving throw... so maybe if we still see monsters in the new DMG with ultra high con saves on a regular base, graze becomes more effective)

 

[Zardnaar]

Alert might be a good origin feat here.
You cam now swap.

Which is what I wrote in my post.

On the other hand, against foes where you miss conatantly, 5 guaranteed damage per swing won't make a difference anyway.

There seems tonbe a sweet spot for graze though. I think it is well balanced against Topple.
(My initial post was posted under the assumption that topple always worked. I forgot the saving throw... so maybe if we still see monsters in the new DMG with ultra high con saves on a regular base, graze becomes more effective)

Con and strength saves generally become bad to target latter on. Higher CR critters tend to have decent saves.

Another reason I don't like frost and poison damage if it has a save.

 

[Valetudo]

Look I watch treatments vids, but just dpr is a bad way to judge any of these classes. He called the s+b fighter bad because it's dpr wasn't as high as a 2hander build but I think a s+b fighter will survive and tank. Also I think the EK is the subclass for survival and locking a monster down.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Con and strength saves generally become bad to target latter on. Higher CR critters tend to have decent saves.

Assuming 5.24 are similar to 5.14 Monsters in that regard. Which is not a safe assumption.

Another reason I don't like frost and poison damage if it has a save.

?

 

[Zardnaar]

Look I watch treatments vids, but just dpr is a bad way to judge any of these classes. He called the s+b fighter bad because it's dpr wasn't as high as a 2hander build but I think a s+b fighter will survive and tank. Also I think the EK is the subclass for survival and locking a monster down.

Sword and boards only +2 AC. But it's casting you a lot of damage proportionally.

I'm not sure the trade off is worth it. In older editions magic shields were very common so a +3 or 4 AC advantage wasn't to uncommon and the damage difference was around 1 point.

Assuming 5.24 are similar to 5.14 Monsters in that regard.


?

Frost and poison saves are generally con saves.

Any large or bigger creature often has good scores in terns of strength and con.

Ray of frost is great, come of cold eh.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Frost and poison saves are generally gon saves.

Any large or bigger creature often has good scores in terns of strength and con.

Ray of frost is great, come of cold eh.

Ah ok. Again, not a safe assumption.

So maybe we need to withhold final judgement until we see the MM.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ah ok. Again, not a safe assumption.

So maybe we need to withhold final judgement until we see the MM.

There's been a few sneak peaks. Monsters seem to be a bit tougher but it's not massive differences.