D&D (2024) Damage Threshold, the new "need a magic weapon"?

[Dausuul]

I don’t care about 100 guards vs 1 dragon.
The game is not meant for that.
Adding rules to confort war game simulation balance is an unnecessary burden.

I disagree -- the rules should be able to handle that situation, because it's a tactic many parties will try. If you're tasked with saving a town from a monster, it's quite reasonable to ask the townsfolk for help. And while the townsfolk can't be expected to charge suicidally into melee, a couple volleys of arrows from ambush while the PCs draw the beast's fire is a fair request.

Of course, the question then becomes, how well should these tactics work? As DM, I'm inclined to allow them to work but throw the PCs some challenges in execution. How many people can you rally to face the monster, and where are you getting the weapons? (Sure, bows are cheap by PC standards, but that doesn't mean you can just walk into the market and find a few hundred for sale.) Can you keep your archers from panicking and spoiling the ambush? How do you keep the monster from going after them, and can you convince them that you'll be able to?

Not every quest has to involve the PCs tackling a fearsome foe on their own. Heroes rallying the people to fight for themselves is another great story.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It is a bit of on awkward kludge, but I also think that ancient dragons probably shouldn't be easily killable by a peasant army. And I also think the rules should be able to handle such situations. One reason why we need this in the first place though, is that monster ACs seem not to get very high and nat 20 always hits (and even more weirdly, always crits, even if that was the only way to hit in the first place.) If an ancient dragons had AC of 25 or more and nat 20 would not be an autohit, it would be immune to the peasants.

 

[Krachek]

I disagree -- the rules should be able to handle that situation, because it's a tactic many parties will try. If you're tasked with saving a town from a monster, it's quite reasonable to ask the townsfolk for help. And while the townsfolk can't be expected to charge suicidally into melee, a couple volleys of arrows from ambush while the PCs draw the beast's fire is a fair thing to ask.

Of course, the question then becomes, how well should these tactics work? As DM, I'm inclined to allow them to work but throw the PCs some challenges in execution. How many people can you rally to face the monster, and where are you getting the weapons? (Sure, bows are cheap by PC standards, but that doesn't mean you can just walk into the market and find a few hundred for sale.) Can you keep your archers from panicking and spoiling the ambush? How do you keep the monster from going after them, and can you convince them that you'll be able to?

Not every quest has to involve the PCs tackling a fearsome foe on their own. Heroes rallying the people to fight for themselves is another great story.

I think it is opening a pandora box.
People are already complaining about encounter balance, and sometime combat turn being too long.
If we add rules to manage an additional warband under the control of the party it will add more imbalance and more time to combat.

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

I like it. It doesn't seem to be any different than 3.x with DR 5/silver or DR 10/magic.

 

[Gorck]

It's certainly interesting that the rule now says "creature or object", but I think the main thing which makes this theory less likely is that the adult green dragon we've seen has no reference to a damage threshold in its stat block. Not that that's proof of anything, or means that no other creature has it, but it makes me lean towards guessing at it not being a thing in the new Monster Manual.

I would not be surprised to see DT only on Constructs in the 2024 MM. Constructs are "creatures" but they're basically animated "objects." That might be the reason for that specific wording in the PHB.

 

[tetrasodium]

well, it can be thrown 60ft, not very precise, but that is why you have hundreds of peasants.

also there are crossbows...

And?

Ever been walking only to have your body automatically react to a thin beach or something that suddenly presses against your eyelid just as it closed? Eyelids reacting to protect sm eye from approaching objects is a pretty well evolved reflex in most creatures.. some creatures even have a secondary protective eyelid.

Sure there are times when you manage to get your eye poked, but we are talking about throwing a dagger at the an eye tens of feet away that is in the moving darting skull of a moving creature that tends to have claw claw bite as a default at will attack on top of any special abilities beyond those.. the odds are not in your favor.

 

[Maxperson]

well, it can be thrown 60ft, not very precise, but that is why you have hundreds of peasants.

also there are crossbows...

But now we are back to that happening at full hit points and 1d4+whatever isn't going to kill it with it's several hundred hit points.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

There was already a preview of an (ancient I think) dragon that lacked a damage threshold. So unless I'm mistaken and that was just an adult, it seems unlikely that this will be generally used for creatures of less than deity level. It might be used for certain types of creatures, like constructs that are made out of objects, or things like vehicles may be redefined as creatures, or the "creature or object" language may just be speculative future-proofing.

 

[Upper_Krust]

So does a +1 great sword do 4d6?

Yes. This seems to make the basic magic weapons interesting and viable again.

In AD&D, weapons went up to +5 (even +6) and the hit points were about 50% less overall than 5E, which caps the weapon bonuses at +3. The damage is just rubbish.

So weapons are taking a massive power drop; which is why in almost every campaign I have played in, martial characters gravitate to weapons that deal extra damage (like flame-tongue swords and so forth).

A +5GS does 10d6?

Yes, although a +5 weapon would likely be a 5-dimensional Artifact, so not something even a Greater God like Zeus would have, it would be something maybe an Outer God would have.

You know, I kind of like that. Do you double the dice for crits or does it just do max damage?

Double the dice.

Another question.

Say I have a +2 flame tongue (+2d6 fire)great sword, what kind of damage does it do? Is the flame damage dice also multiplied?

The best fit I arrived at was to make the extra dice of the energy type. Having half the damage as the energy type works best, but gets awkward when its 3 dice.

So a +2 Flametongue longsword deals 1d8 slashing + 2d8 fire. A Flametongue Greatsword deals 2d6 Slashing and 4d6 fire.

This might seem weaker than a +3 longsword dealing 3d8 slashing, but epic characters and immortals might have ways to maximize or even double energy damage (though that's all godly stuff).

While we are on the subject (not to derail the OP); the appropriate enemies are Vulnerable to 'Slayer' weapons (ie. Dragons are Vulnerable to damage from Dragon-slaying weapons) and Sharpness/Vorpal weapons deal maximum damage (So a +1 Greatsword of Sharpness deals 24 damage while +3 Vorpal Longsword deals 32 damage, etc).

 

[jasper]

There was already a preview of an (ancient I think) dragon that lacked a damage threshold. So unless I'm mistaken and that was just an adult, it seems unlikely that this will be generally used for creatures of less than deity level. It might be used for certain types of creatures, like constructs that are made out of objects, or things like vehicles may be redefined as creatures, or the "creature or object" language may just be speculative future-proofing.

is it this one from dm tim