D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[Zardnaar]

By level 3
I don't think there's any full caster that can keep up with damage focused Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers or Battlemaster Fighters in terms of single target damage. A warlock utilizing their super familiar might exceed them. A war cleric might could get close to them.

By level 5
Martials like Barbarians consistently can hit for 30+ DPR. Paladins should be similar. I don't think there's any caster that can do that kind of single target damage at that level.

That said, techniques like reaction moving with Spirit Guardians, upcast Moonbeam vs immobilized foes both give respectable single target damage while also being able to deal AOE damage. Though there is definitely a damage caster running out of gas issue at this level compared to the martials.

By level 7
Martials increase their DPR ever so slightly. Casters get access to additional techniques like upcast summon fey, coupled with their best at will cantrip/attack. There's alot more spell slot gas by this level and the previous techniques just work that much better in the higher level slots.

By level 9
Most martials haven't gotten very much additional offensive power by this point. I think at this point full casters tend to start outperforming martials at single target damage if they wish.

At level 11
Martials mostly have 1 last large push toward increasing their damage before extremely high levels. Casters are probably ever so slightly behind this for single target damage.

That said, good magic weapons, can really push things into martials favor throughout the whole level range.

And then there's also some of the 'questionable' spells/spell combos like CME+Scorching Ray (CME an obviously unbalanced spell0, or Magic Missile and Evocation Wizard's level 10 ability making the int damage bonus apply to all missiles (not a clear cut interpretation), etc.

Point being, there's going to be alot of variability in actual play when it comes to damage.

The other thing I'd suggest is that casters vs a single target, they don't really need to damage, they just need to use appropriate low level control spells. Couple that with good aoe damage/control abilities and casters are very good, even if martial single target damage might be a bit higher.

Level 3 best I've got is probably a warlock with hex+ Scorching ray nova strike and all 3 magic adept feats. They found local strike every encounter. Might not white room win but real game useful.

I suspect it's a sorcerer somewhere in the higher tier 2. But might be limited by fire damage hence sone combination of Scorching ray, Fireball, Chromatic Orb.

 

[Zardnaar]

Even at high levels, I don't like factoring upcast CME into damage calculations: feels too obviously broken.
At those levels its mostly unnecessary.

I'd be interested to know how a slightly more sustainable strategy, such as maintaining a damaging spell and then using cantrips/lower level spells stacks up.

The fighter will generally be well out of their own resources (hit points and hit dice) before then.

I think most of the OP calculation was based on single target. No one is suggesting that casters don't blow martials out of the water when it comes to damaging mobs of mooks.

At lower levels perhaps. Are these "martials" casting spells to achieve their high damage?

Warrior types with spells can use them to boost damage. Hunters mark, divine favor, hex via feat or whatever are all valid.

Playable level 1-10 from level 1 is main criteria eg viable in real game. Not a level 9 or 10 gotcha type build.

Title said consistent damage.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes, but how much hits can casters take?

Clerics and Druids, more than the ranger

 

[FrogReaver]

Level 3 best I've got is probably a warlock with hex+ Scorching ray nova strike and all 3 magic adept feats.

3d6 x3 at 60% accuracy = 18.9 once per short rest followed by 7.2 DPR for the rest isn't great. A Zealot Barbarian can do 15.7 DPR every turn he's raging in comparison (rage damage, reckless attack, savage attack origin feat, greataxe).

A moon druid using moon beam with his slots and transforming into a lion should outperform the warlock. 8.8 DPR moonbeam (chance for double damage and great at AOE now since moving the beam through an enemy damages them). Along with 12.6 DPR for the lion.

I suspect it's a sorcerer somewhere in the higher tier 2. But might be limited by fire damage hence sone combination of Scorching ray, Fireball, Chromatic Orb.

I suspect sorcerer will be one of the lower ones. He doesn't get much good concentration reoccuring damage spells or summon spells that I recall.

 

[Ashrym]

Then cast Mass Suggestions first.

It's an illusion that can deal 10d6 sneak attack damage every round, then reliably hide.

Casting mass suggestion means rolling for initiative that the wizard isn't guaranteed to win and provides a save against which the rogue isn't guaranteed to fail. That rogue is capable of KO'ing that wizard with steady aim and cunning strike though.

If I were playing the rogue I would cooperate anyway. Two of me would clearly be better than one.

Simulacrum comes with a hurdles anyway. The 12 hour casting time is long and snow / ice isn't readily available on demand so it tends to depend on climate and season. There's a 1500gp consumable cost per casting, the simulacrum can only be healed by a repair process, and that repair cost of 100gp per hp repaired is a massive cost.

The cost and maintenance of a simulacrum is prohibitive enough that I have a hard time seeing it as a long term source of damage. Using that simulacrum that way is going to cost thousands of gold daily. That wizard would end up hunting treasure just to pay the repair costs on the simulacrum.

 

[Zardnaar]

3d6 x3 at 60% accuracy = 18.9 once per short rest followed by 7.2 DPR for the rest isn't great. A Zealot Barbarian can do 15.7 DPR every turn he's raging in comparison (rage damage, reckless attack, savage attack origin feat, greataxe).

A moon druid using moon beam with his slots and transforming into a lion should outperform the warlock. 8.8 DPR moonbeam (chance for double damage and great at AOE now since moving the beam through an enemy damages them). Along with 12.6 DPR for the lion.


I suspect sorcerer will be one of the lower ones. He doesn't get much good concentration reoccuring damage spells or summon spells that I recall.

Summon spells don't deal tgat much damage and require concentration. Guess who is best at that?

If summons count I think one of the sorcerers with a summon spell wins combined with what I laid out.

Treantmonk did crunch some numbers I think sorcerer win out of the masters. I improved on his numbers.

And 65% hit chance is probably why I don't think wizard with scorching ray and CME lvl 7/9 will win.

A level 3 warlock won't win either but nova strike at lvl 3 is dangerous.

 

[FrogReaver]

Casting mass suggestion means rolling for initiative that the wizard isn't guaranteed to win and provides a save against which the rogue isn't guaranteed to fail. That rogue is capable of KO'ing that wizard with steady aim and cunning strike though.

If I were playing the rogue I would cooperate anyway. Two of me would clearly be better than one.

Simulacrum comes with a hurdles anyway. The 12 hour casting time is long and snow / ice isn't readily available on demand so it tends to depend on climate and season. There's a 1500gp consumable cost per casting, the simulacrum can only be healed by a repair process, and that repair cost of 100gp per hp repaired is a massive cost.

The cost and maintenance of a simulacrum is prohibitive enough that I have a hard time seeing it as a long term source of damage. Using that simulacrum that way is going to cost thousands of gold daily. That wizard would end up hunting treasure just to pay the repair costs on the simulacrum.

Can wish no longer cast it for free and without the long casting time?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Conditions under which martial characters can overtake non-martial characters for DPR/net daily damage:

1. Combats are unusually long (6+ rounds on average) where the martial characters are always able to land attacks, e.g. they never have to wait out a round damage-wise because they don't have the range to attack something
2. Combats are mostly against just one or two large targets with good "main" saves but no better than decent AC
3. Most, if not all, combats do not involve large numbers of weak targets, unless those targets are so weak they're comparable to 4e minions (that is, you hit them once, they die), so martial characters can cleave through several per round
4. The party actually goes beyond the expected 6-8 encounters per day, closer to 8-10 encounters per day
5. The party takes far, far more short rests than is typical for 5e groups (that is, most groups average just 1 SR/LR, we're talking 4+ SR/LR), especially if the martial characters get resources back from short rests
6. The casters in the group specifically aim to not be very good at doing damage, thus by default making the martial characters better
7. The DM is actively putting her thumb on the scale to favor martial characters over caster characters (e.g. spells and foci never appear in loot, nor can they be bought in shops, but highly desirable martial magic items consistently do appear; creatures immune to conditions or elements the casters use are frequent, but little to nothing has resistance to weapon damage types; creatures have great saving throws in the categories the casters target e.g. Dex/Wis/Con, but crappy ones in Str, which martials typically target; etc.)

The more of the above you have, the higher the likelihood that this sort of result happens. Unfortunately, most of these things are not something groups typically do, and several of them are not what 5e was designed to do. Unusually long combats are generally disliked because they're often a boring slog (the lackluster design of many/most official 5e monsters really really doesn't help here). Even hitting the expected 6-8 daily encounters is often seen as a painfully over-extended thing, something that rarely if ever happens for most groups. With fewer daily encounters, you get more spells usable per encounter each day, and less need to take short rests, meaning, many martial characters aren't restoring their resources as fast (nor is the Warlock, the only short-rest caster, something Crawford explicitly noted in the months leading up to the "One D&D" playtest announcement.) And, as we've been told time and time and time again, the whole point of 5e "stretching out" the levels at which monsters are appropriate foes was specifically to make it so that you'd be fielding large numbers of weak-but-still-dangerous enemies at the PCs, which caters to classes that can do AoE damage...and that's almost exclusively the domain of spellcasters, not martial characters.

So....yeah. There are, objectively, conditions under which pure-martial characters can overtake mostly- or primarily-spellcaster characters on damage. But most of the conditions which would invite this are either working against how people prefer to play 5e, or against the fundamental design of the system, or against the monster design of the system, or doing things that are often less interesting than doing the opposite. Which...basically means that we're left with "spellcasters deciding to let the martial characters be the stars" or "DM deciding to nerf casters and buff martials in this game."

Which, you may note, that former thing is exactly how Treantmonk expressed his "God wizard" archetype from 3.x. You're much too busy rewriting reality to muck about with crass things like defeating bosses. That's something you leave for the BSF ("Big Stupid Fighter") to deal with. That way, you convince them that they're actually contributing, all the while you are the one actually deciding whether any of their contributions really matter or not. It's your game, you just deign to let them play in it.

That this hasn't changed from 3.x should be pretty indicative.

 

[Ashrym]

Can wish no longer cast it for free and without the long casting time?

Wish can. Wish is a long ways away but I guess if we're talking those levels wish counts.

 

[FrogReaver]

Summon spells don't deal tgat much damage and require concentration. Guess who is best at that?

Draconic Spirit is fairly bad at DPR compared to the others. It also can't be cast in level 4 slots. Construct might work where it can get some off turn damage if attacked is interesting but not clear. I think those are the only ones a sorcerer can get?

I think for DPR ones like summon fey, summon beast are best. Summon undead deserves honorable mention for being ranged. None of those the sorcerer gets. Which mostly puts wizard and druid on top for focus on these spells.

Treantmonk dud crunch sone numbers I think sorcerer win out of the masters. I improved on his numbers.

I don't think I've once posted about damage without first crunching numbers.