D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[UngeheuerLich]

Which effectively incapacitated them while you kill off the ones that saved.

Not worse than wall of force.

What about "Follow us and make ranged attacks against your boss." ?

Damages the ally. Does not work.

But you can tell them to use all their disable spells on the boss that does not do damage.

It effectively is better than any mind control spell. You could also tell them to polymorph themselves into a frog and jump into a small box.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Which, you may note, that former thing is exactly how Treantmonk expressed his "God wizard" archetype from 3.x. You're much too busy rewriting reality to muck about with crass things like defeating bosses. That's something you leave for the BSF ("Big Stupid Fighter") to deal with. That way, you convince them that they're actually contributing, all the while you are the one actually deciding whether any of their contributions really matter or not. It's your game, you just deign to let them play in it.

That this hasn't changed from 3.x should be pretty indicative.

Indeed. The entire basis of this thread is "What if the casters decided to nerf themselves to compete against the fighter's strengths?" rather than judging the casters on their overall performance including what their own strengths are.

Whether they think that martials or casters are better at single target damage, I don't think that many people are going to argue that martials even compete with casters at most other aspects of the game.

 

[TwoSix]

Indeed. The entire basis of this thread is "What if the casters decided to nerf themselves to compete against the fighter's strengths?" rather than judging the casters on their overall performance including what their own strengths are.

Whether they think that martials or casters are better at single target damage, I don't think that many people are going to argue that martials even compete with casters at most other aspects of the game.

If one class can do X, and the other class can do X and Y and Z, then the second class is obviously better. That still holds true if the first class's X is really 1.5X.

If their X is actually 4X or 5X, such that the second's class X is barely relevant, than we can have discussion.

 

[mellored]

Not worse than wall of force.

Wall of force has concentration, but is still overpowered. Mass Suggestion doesn't.

You can do both at the same time.

Damages the ally. Does not work.

Suggest that their boss isn't an ally.

But you can tell them to use all their disable spells on the boss that does not do damage.

Or go stand in a corner while you setup a trap or whatever.

Not exactly hard to find a way to kill something with 24 hour duration.

Or copy them with Simulacrum.

 

[Mort]

Wall of force has concentration, but is still overpowered. Mass Suggestion doesn't.

You can do both at the same time.

Suggest that their boss isn't an ally.

Though it's 1 suggestion which could potentially last up to 24 hours. So any extra suggestions are another casting.

Or copy them with Simulacrum.

If they're willing to sit still (Yes, if you suggested them to do so, then sure but that's 2 high level spells and a lot of time).

Regardless, Simulacrum has ALWAYS been busted in 5e and you let the spell into your game at your own risk.

But as to the greater point. Magic (and casters that cast it) gets more and more dominant as the levels increase, that's hard to dispute. But at least 5.24 has taken a few steps. For example - it's not so easy to suggest a 9+ level fighter, and good luck doing it with an 18+ level fighter. And in a world where casters are prominent, feats like mage slayer would be too.

As to the OP. Mid-high level fighters are absolute beasts damage wise - at least, if done correctly and on single target damage. Can you design a caster to keep up, possibly, but it's not their strong suite and will depend A LOT on if the DM is overly generous with letting the party set the pace of play. Frankly, since this is a cooperative game (usually) the Casters are best doing what they do best, which is mostly control - and then allow the martials to do their thing.

For me, the key is to avoid situations where 1 character is just much better at another characters schtick. 3e had a massive problem with this (casters could do what a fighter could do, but the reverse didn't hold). 4e basically eliminated the issue, but there were a lot of complaints as to how. 5e was A LOT better than 3e about it, and, from what I've seen 5.24 has gone even further to narrow that gap.

 

[Ashrym]

1 Rogue and 4 wizards.
Is now a party of 5 rogues and 4 wizards.

Control weather.

That's why i picked rogues.
They can most easily deal damage while avoiding taking any. Stand in the back, hit and run.

4 wizards can lay down plenty of web and other control while 5 rogues will pick them off.

It wouldn't work as well to copy a Barbarian.

Control weather is also a concentration spell, requires gradual increases, doesn't last as long as the required time to cast simulacrum, and there's still no guarantee a wizard has control weather in their spell books. They select 4 or 5 of the 13 options while leveling up and the rest still need to be found.

If we have one wizard spending all that time on simulacrum, another wizard supporting the first with control weather to sustain the duration, and the rogue sitting there waiting to be copied for 12+ hours then I have to question how much damage this group has lost in the meantime compared to a fighter, barbarian, and monk spending that time on other activities.

I think of it this way.

Assume you were entering blindly into a random 10th level adventure with 4 10th level characters.

Would you rather have a party of

A) Fighter, barbarian, monk, rogue or
B) Wizard, cleric, druid, sorcerer?

If we can get that scenario somewhere in the range of "60% pick B, 40% pick A", then I'd say we've given martials enough utility and flexibility. But I don't think we're there yet.

I'd want the party with the rogue. Traps and other hazards can eat through spell slot resources that the rogue's skill benefits can handle and that group can cover a lot of their own healing. There's no guarantee the spellcasters have appropriate spells to deal with the obstacles or will have the resources left at the end of the adventure to complete it.

Team B has poor sustainable damage without finite resource expenditure.

Team A has more short rest recovery instead and less reliance on a finite resource. Why would I want to take a group that mostly prepares for the event when they're going in blind and cannot prepare the same for the event?

I don't think this was a gotcha. ;-)

Trope-wise, casters are the ones who make dungeons, trapped towers, and summon guardians to protect them. Those things take time and resources. By spending time and resources, casters (especially wizards) become stronger.

Warriors are the ones who come in and smash the traps and defeat the guardians.

Works great as a narrative trope, not as good in a game where the delta between warriors and casters is supposed to be small, but casters can still do strengthen themselves during downtime.

But we're playing with rules. Bastions are the rules to which you refer and those are defined in the DMG.

I don't think barbarian players want to spend 12 hours preparing.

Or give them the opportunity to be creative and see what they come up with.

Whether they think that martials or casters are better at single target damage, I don't think that many people are going to argue that martials even compete with casters at most other aspects of the game.

Except I'll still stan reliable talent. Protection from low rolls drastically increases the success rate on making those checks. It's definitely not casting wish, but I cannot badmouth that ability.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Except I'll still stan reliable talent. Protection from low rolls drastically increases the success rate on making those checks. It's definitely not casting wish, but I cannot badmouth that ability.

Reliable talent, and expertise are great. But no matter how high you roll, you can only ever achieve what an ability check can achieve.

 

[mellored]

If we have one wizard spending all that time on simulacrum, another wizard supporting the first with control weather to sustain the duration, and the rogue sitting there waiting to be copied for 12+ hours then I have to question how much damage this group has lost in the meantime compared to a fighter, barbarian, and monk spending that time on other activities.

Unless they would of spent 12+ hours traveling.
Then you can just cast teleport and catch up.

Or teleport to a cold climate, make a simulacrum, and teleport back.

Most campaigns have some downtime. If not, then you basically banned the spell.

Though it's 1 suggestion which could potentially last up to 24 hours. So any extra suggestions are another casting.

"Help us in a coup d'état" is one suggestion.

 

[TwoSix]

I'd want the party with the rogue. Traps and other hazards can eat through spell slot resources that the rogue's skill benefits can handle and that group can cover a lot of their own healing. There's no guarantee the spellcasters have appropriate spells to deal with the obstacles or will have the resources left at the end of the adventure to complete it.

Not really great optimization. Lots of adventures have few-to-no traps, and they can generally be handled by anyone with a combination of Investigation, Perception, and decent Dex. Reliable Talent and possible thieves' tools Expertise is nice, but not remotely necessary. Wildshape, Knock, and Fly can also handle a lot of traversal and entrance issues.

Team B has poor sustainable damage without finite resource expenditure.

Team B has double fireballs. They'll be fine.

Team A has more short rest recovery instead and less reliance on a finite resource. Why would I want to take a group that mostly prepares for the event when they're going in blind and cannot prepare the same for the event?

Of course they can prepare. Most adventures aren't on a timer. You spend the first day scouting, getting the lay of the land, and then rest and prepare spells.

Even without prepping, a 10th level cleric has 24 spells prepped, a druid and wizard have at least 15 each? Their basic adventuring prep will cover 95+% of situations that might arise.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Wall of force has concentration, but is still overpowered. Mass Suggestion doesn't.

You can do both at the same time.

Suggest that their boss isn't an ally.

Or go stand in a corner while you setup a trap or whatever.

Not exactly hard to find a way to kill something with 24 hour duration.

Or copy them with Simulacrum.

I really don't know what we are arguing about.
I just mentioned the mass suggestion spell as written is busted anyway, with or without concentration. Adding conce tration is nit enough by far. It is more potent then geas in many ways.

With geas you can take some damage and do something else. Suggestion does not leave that option.

I really expected suggestion to be nerfed, not buffed.